Quebec's war on Religion

[Knut]

Originally Posted by normtwofinger

We should have a referendum to remove Quebec from Canada. I'd vote Yes.

I would agree, except where would we get our Goalies and 80% of our medal count from in the Olympics.

[jofillips]

good shortish article by the CBC;
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...ec-values.html

I love that marois is comparing France and Britain, was it 3 or 4 years ago nearly 80 towns and city centres in France were rioting and burning cars because of (among other things) the obvious discrimination/racism against muslims??
By all means no country is perfect but I personally feel the divide is FAR greater when I visit France.

[Daradon]

Yeah, I think a lot of articles have been pointing to that.

I've never been to France myself, but I remember reading up on the riots years ago and hearing the same conclusions.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by Daradon

The only thing worse (and more lame, for lack of a better word) than Quebec separatism, is Western separatism.

Yes these arguments are annoying, and having to contribute monetarily to them is almost insulting, but it's a very VERY small part of the provinces economic story. For some reason Westerners think Quebec is just this black hole where we through all of our money down. This is not true.

Besides all the other benefits of remaining part of the country, some quantifiable, some not, I'm curious to think why you'd think we'd be better off economically? Sure we boom, but we also bust. I think it's pretty short-sighted to think we'd be on easy street if we just left. That leaving would even solve any of the current 'problems' at all.

I would argue that even for the times we have to help out the East, being part of a larger economy is far more beneficial to us than the money we lose. You are also forgetting, that we are sometimes a recipient of equalization too. So it does go both ways.

Not to mention a country of 4-8 million (wherever you're drawing the lines) isn't nearly large enough to have a sustainable economic plan (barring some obvious outliers, which would not pertain to us). We'd be at the mercy of the markets even more so than Canada is now!

Lastly, I dunno why you'd say the West anyway? You think those in BC, especially Vancouver, would want to be part of that? Hah!

Like I said, short-sighted, and kinda lame. Really lame actually.

It's pretty easy to understand that the concerns of some who would like more autonomy from Eastern Canada are very legitimate. Wikipedia sums it up pretty well:

Alberta separatism arises from the belief held by some that Alberta is culturally distinct from the rest of Canada, particularly Central Canada and Eastern Canada, and from the belief that Alberta is harmed economically by federal policies that disadvantage Alberta. In the past, tariff walls to promote the growth of tractor production in Ontario increased the cost of tractors for Alberta. In the 1980s, the National Energy Policy was seen as disadvantaging Alberta's interests. In the recent oil boom based on oilsands, Alberta ceased to be a "have-not" province ceasing to be a recipient of equalization payments and instead provided financial support to other provinces through the federal transfer payment program. The Alberta economy had been traditionally based on ranching, and in the last years of the 20th century, been bolstered by considerable revenues from oil and gas production. Albertans have been hostile to concessions to Quebec sovereigntists. Alberta has developed a political culture that is more conservative, in both economic and social issues, than the rest of Canada.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_separatism

This is a sample of some of the grievances from the past, and as we see more money every year funneled to eastern provinces it only verifies that they see us very much like an ATM machine. So there's that.

Politically we are different as well, with different beliefs on just about everything from economic priorities to social issues (which should be all too obvious right now).

As for the population being too small for such a large country, the opposite is true, that in a resourced based economy a high population density just wouldn't work. Being a resource based economy is a good thing in the world of today, as energy and food will always be in demand. The last thing you would want in todays world is to be in manufacturing in North America, which is exactly Quebec and Ontario and why they are going deeper and deeper into debt.

There are other reasons too, such as unequal representation by population in parliament.

Anyways, western separation is an extreme view that took time to grow out of this ongoing situation. I don't think it will ever happen and it would be a sad day if Canada were to ever break up, but in the very least we need to be a little more aggressive with eastern provinces in addressing them.

Basically, all I would like to see is Alberta distance itself somehow from Quebec if they pass this legislation as it does not reflect our values in any way, shape or form in any respect.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by karl262

It's pretty easy to understand that the concerns of some who would like more autonomy from Eastern Canada are very legitimate. Wikipedia sums it up pretty well:

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_separatism

This is a sample of some of the grievances from the past, and as we see more money every year funneled to eastern provinces it only verifies that they see us very much like an ATM machine. So there's that.

Politically we are different as well, with different beliefs on just about everything from economic priorities to social issues (which should be all too obvious right now).

As for the population being too small for such a large country, the opposite is true, that in a resourced based economy a high population density just wouldn't work. Being a resource based economy is a good thing in the world of today, as energy and food will always be in demand. The last thing you would want in todays world is to be in manufacturing in North America, which is exactly Quebec and Ontario and why they are going deeper and deeper into debt.

There are other reasons too, such as unequal representation by population in parliament.

Anyways, western separation is an extreme view that took time to grow out of this ongoing situation. I don't think it will ever happen and it would be a sad day if Canada were to ever break up, but in the very least we need to be a little more aggressive with eastern provinces in addressing them.

Basically, all I would like to see is Alberta distance itself somehow from Quebec if they pass this legislation as it does not reflect our values in any way, shape or form in any respect.

It's not to say that those issues aren't there, just that they are wildly overstated. Like many emotional arguments they sound good, but kinda pale with a closer look. Like Quebec separatism it's seems more whining than substance. At least Quebec has much larger cultural examples to point at. Alberta being slightly more conservative is hardly here nor there. Someone has to be at one end of the spectrum. We're still far less conservative that 95% of the States (possibly counting pockets in LA, San Fran, and Vegas, haha). So I'm not sure how one feels there is enough cultural difference there to warrant a new country.

As far as under representation goes, it's a problem most of the provinces have. And not at the benefit of Ontario or even Quebec may I add, but the maritime provinces and the territories, because their population is so low. (Actually Quebec may be 1% over or something, but it's miniscule.)

Also, it's not nearly as dramatic as many people would have you believe. I'm trying to look up some numbers now, but I'll post them later. I remember seeing them after the last federal election. The thing is, it makes sense, and is necessary, though it seems unfair. You can't give PEI no say for instance. So of course they are going to be over represented in relation to their population.

I agree with you on this issue of course, but as I've said before, it looks like it's going to be much ado about nothing. Canada will defend it's charter over Quebec's if it goes that far, which I don't think it will, and they will win. The Canada Charter of Rights and Freedoms has to be followed by all provinces including Quebec, and can be enforced by the Supreme Court if need be. Yes it's annoying and a little embarrassing, but in the grand scheme of things it's hardly indicative of a huge problem between our provinces. It's just another stupid Quebec thing.

The thing to remember is, it isn't even all of Quebec. It doesn't even look like it's the majority. It's just the loud minority and a bull headed premiere. It's tempting, even for me to paint this situation with a wide brush, but there have been many detractors to come out against this bill in Quebec, even an MP who lost her job today. The commerce board of Montreal also came out against it today.

The PQ just got back in power last election cycle. And they may lose the next if they keep doing things like this. And the BQ is down to what, 3 seats? The separatist parties will go through their cycles, but they're not the power they used to be, and it's doubtful they ever will be again. Which may be why they are trying this move now. They see the writing on the wall. Unfortunately, for Ms. Marois, it was a dumb move right from the start.

It's good to celebrate our differences in Alberta as opposed to the rest of Canada, and even point out what we think is wrong in situations like this, but there isn't enough to even think separation is a smart or necessary idea. Like I said, for lack of a better word it just seems lame. It's like a kid who didn't get their way and so they run away from home.

[chemgear]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09...uebec-charter/

Couillard’s remarks came after a Quebec woman of Algerian origin wearing an Islamic veil said she and her son were accosted at Place Laurier shopping centre in Quebec City two weeks ago by a woman citing the charter who demanded they change their religion and remove the headscarf.

Badia Senouci said she faults Quebec Premier Pauline Marois’s introduction of the charter. She has lived in Quebec City for 14 years without overt discrimination.
“Since Ms. Marois wants this charter,” Mrs. Senouci told La Presse, “I see this tension and these hateful glances directed towards us.”

She said her 18 year old son intervened with the woman who then spat in his face.

Her husband, Abdelmalek Mansouri, said he is considering plans to leave Quebec with his family because he fears that the Muslim community will be increasingly targeted by such attacks.