Christ on the Cross - Time for a Rebranding?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by zuluking

Really???

Yes really. If Jesus led a normal life (grew up, became a teenager, went through a rebellious stage, banged some chicks, learned carpentry, got into construction, whistled at cute girls as they walked by the job site, got hammered at the pub on Fridays, etc.), then pissed off the wrong guy and was crucified, there wouldn't be the bible we have today. It is because of the life he led that his death became important.

BTW, he didn't actually rise from the dead because that is absurd. They wrote that bit in after the fact. His teachings are what made him popular and are what was important.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yes really. If Jesus led a normal life (grew up, became a teenager, went through a rebellious stage, banged some chicks, learned carpentry, got into construction, whistled at cute girls as they walked by the job site, got hammered at the pub on Fridays, etc.), then pissed off the wrong guy and was crucified, there wouldn't be the bible we have today. It is because of the life he led that his death became important.

BTW, he didn't actually rise from the dead because that is absurd. They wrote that bit in after the fact. His teachings are what made him popular and are what was important.

Well. I'm glad you set the story straight, now we all know. I'm glad you cleared that all up. Damn man, where have you been? You should have said this earlier. It would really have saved a lot of people a lot of trouble.

You may have put a lot of theologians out of work though. They're not going to be happy with you.

And God forbid you get on the bad side of the Theologians Union Local 1225.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Do you not think that the rules concerning the physical body would be I don't know slightly changed in hell since the punishment is considered eternal. Of that the bodies were representable as souls.

What could physical abuse and discomfort be representative of to a soul?

[MolsonInBothHands]

I went looking for this:



And found this:



This one is terrible, but might be right up Sliver's ... aaahhh ... alley.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yes really. If Jesus led a normal life (grew up, became a teenager, went through a rebellious stage, banged some chicks, learned carpentry, got into construction, whistled at cute girls as they walked by the job site, got hammered at the pub on Fridays, etc.), then pissed off the wrong guy and was crucified, there wouldn't be the bible we have today. It is because of the life he led that his death became important.

BTW, he didn't actually rise from the dead because that is absurd. They wrote that bit in after the fact. His teachings are what made him popular and are what was important.

Except that you missed out that the reason why God put Jesus on earth was to basically be sacrificed, so while his teachings were important. the whole reason why he was there, and the whole concept of sacrifice are the key core of the whole faith.

And thanks for putting the whole he didn't rise from the dead thing because we wouldn't have ever realized that.

You; continually skip over the real reason why Jesus was here, the teachings and his travels were to establish who and what he was.

But that isn't key to the faith and a major part of the symbology of the church

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

What could physical abuse and discomfort be representative of to a soul?

Physical abuse and discomfort.

In ghost busters the ghosts felt pain when they were being trapped.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Except that you missed out that the reason why God put Jesus on earth was to basically be sacrificed, so while his teachings were important. the whole reason why he was there, and the whole concept of sacrifice are the key core of the whole faith.

Only slight amendment, God created the universe 13.7 billion years ago, then the earth 4.4 billion years ago, waits until 2000 years ago to plop his son on earth and of course that son is actually God himself, so he kills himself in order to forgive the sins of those on earth.

We're not sure if those born before he came were given this forgiveness, or when the cut off was for them to be forgiven, not sure if there was a cut off date in our evolution which was the include in heaven or sent to hell. Maybe they are all in limbo. Hopefully the homo sapiens all made it into heaven, 200,000yrs worth, hoping Jesus forgave them 198,000 worth of years.. But really how did the cut off date work, was it like Tuesday May 9th, 200000 BC 12pm? These could not have been easy decisions.

Always wondered why its a cross that he's on and not a T, since crucifictions were done on T's and not crosses. Other than that, its a terrific symbol, just nitpicking here.

[ignite09]

With all due respect, do some of you even know what is being argued anymore? Or are we now just going to make this another "if you don't share my beliefs it's important you know I think your an idiot" thread?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Thor

Only slight amendment, God created the universe 13.7 billion years ago, then the earth 4.4 billion years ago, waits until 2000 years ago to plop his son on earth and of course that son is actually God himself, so he kills himself in order to forgive the sins of those on earth.

We're not sure if those born before he came were given this forgiveness, or when the cut off was for them to be forgiven, not sure if there was a cut off date in our evolution which was the include in heaven or sent to hell. Maybe they are all in limbo. Hopefully the homo sapiens all made it into heaven, 200,000yrs worth, hoping Jesus forgave them 198,000 worth of years.. But really how did the cut off date work, was it like Tuesday May 9th, 200000 BC 12pm? These could not have been easy decisions.

Always wondered why its a cross that he's on and not a T, since crucifictions were done on T's and not crosses. Other than that, its a terrific symbol, just nitpicking here.

Thanks first of all.

There is always a distinct difference in god prior to and after, and especially if you look at old testiment vs new testiment

In the older stuff, God was not exactly a forgiveness machine, he was fire and brimestone god, you lived by his rule or he'd smote your city, or he'd constantly test you (Yeah I want you to kill your boy), to gambling with the devil over souls.

Then he mellows, forgiveness comes of the table, he tosses "his son" on the pile to collectively save men's souls. Then he basically vanishes.

Now I'm not saying god was aliens


But the's a alien.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by ignite09

With all due respect, do some of you even know what is being argued anymore? Or are we now just going to make this another "if you don't share my beliefs it's important you know I think your an idiot" thread?

Nah, I think its pretty clear what's being argued thanks

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

I went looking for this:



And found this:



This one is terrible, but might be right up Sliver's ... aaahhh ... alley.

To hell with that, I spent a minute staring up a dog's a$$ before I saw that image.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Except that you missed out that the reason why God put Jesus on earth was to basically be sacrificed, so while his teachings were important. the whole reason why he was there, and the whole concept of sacrifice are the key core of the whole faith.

And thanks for putting the whole he didn't rise from the dead thing because we wouldn't have ever realized that.

You; continually skip over the real reason why Jesus was here, the teachings and his travels were to establish who and what he was.

But that isn't key to the faith and a major part of the symbology of the church

If he didn't teach anything, he wouldn't have been martyred. He would have been a nobody like 99.99999999999999999999% of people in history. You're putting the cart before the horse.

But maybe we are splitting hairs here. His teachings were important; they're the meat of the religion. The rising from the dead thing is the pizzazz. Let's say they're equally important. If you can accept that, then maybe you can understand my perspective that the image of him strung up on a cross is a little graphic given that was his reality for a few days versus the 20 years or so he spent preaching. I think the cross by itself effectively reminds followers of his end, but a more apt pose for statues, etc. of JC would be ones of him preaching/teaching.

If you don't accept that, we'll just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.

I do think my image is much more tasteful than what is out there right now, though. I can't remember seeing any statues of MLK with a bullet streaming through his head. Significant people aren't generally significant because they died. They earn their significance during their life (like JC did).

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Physical abuse and discomfort.

In ghost busters the ghosts felt pain when they were being trapped.

ha, well ghostbusters was as real as religion, so I guess that makes sense.

[mariners_fever]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I understand fine. I studied religion in university and even have a minor in the subject.

You are coming from a biased perspective, which unfortunately precludes you (it seems) from stepping back to look at this objectively and discussing the merits of my points.

From an unbiased athiest perspective, you're still asinine.

Originally Posted by Sliver

His message was more important than the fact that he was nailed to a cross, was it not?

HIS DEATH IS THEIR MESSAGE, along with his resurrection.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by ignite09

With all due respect, do some of you even know what is being argued anymore? Or are we now just going to make this another "if you don't share my beliefs it's important you know I think your an idiot" thread?

I think it was about this.

[The Goon]

Originally Posted by Thor

What kind of dessert was it? This is important. I'm craving lemon cake.

[Thor]

I always crave cupcakes

[FlamesAddiction]

I'm sure it was matzoh buttercruch candy.

[Minnie]

Sliver, you're as rabid about this stuff as you claim every dog on the planet is, just by virtue of the fact that they're dogs.

Kinda like this.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

This thread is already so filled with hostility, but I do understand the OPs point about the imagery thing. I was raised with Christian values/ethics without any of the ideas of Christ's martyrdom being the sole purpose of his existence, so I'm already sympathetic with what he's talking about. That being said, he's pretty insulting with how he talks about things, so I'm not really on his side.

I will say however that I wish that they would stop using the symbology of his torture and death to convey their message. It's more than just the violence, it's what the imagery of violence stirs up in people. Let's not forget that passion plays used the images and process of Christ's torture and crucifixion to stir up anger and violence in Christians against others, Jewish people specifically. Now that I am married to a Jewish woman I take offense to these images. This is obviously personal to me and I don't expect them to change their whole faith just for my convenience, but I sure wish they would focus on the positives instead of the negatives.

To me the positives of Christianity are pretty much the teachings of Christ coupled with the spirituality of divine forgiveness. If you need that symbol to remind you of the forgiveness part, then so be it, but to me the real symbol of forgiveness is Christ's resurrection since it was God bringing his son home to him so to speak. Since the faith believes we are ALL God's children this is a metaphor for our own resurrection into heaven. So I agree that I think the symbol for the church should be Christ teaching or Christ's resurrection, rather than his death.

Maybe a little more like this?

Spoiler!

Even the famous Gandhi saw the value of Christ being his teachings, and he even implemented them with his non-violent resistance to the British in order to create the changes he wanted. I will leave you with a famous Gandhi quote: "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." When I read that I wonder if Christ would approve of the image of him on the cross being the main image of the faith.