[Trade] Jagr to Boston for Lane MacDermid, Cody Payne and conditional 2nd

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by neo45

This return does not justify Feaster not getting proper return for Iginla and Bouwmeester. People are simply trying to find something to defend about the people running our team, which I can understand, but there isn't anything. They are doing a bad job

This return doesn't make the Morrow, Murray, Regher, etc. trades just go away. If anything, Feaster probably lowered the market value for forwards by accepting such a crap deal for Iginla

This is kind of circular reasoning, no?

Essentially, you're arguing that even though the market for players is probably consistent with what Feaster got for Iginla and Bouwmeester, that he's the reason the market is set there, and that therefore it's his fault.

Not to mention that the returns for Morrow, Murray and Regehr are in fact quite consistent with the market value for other players. Murray and Regehr got the same return, 2 second-round picks. In an objective sense, 2 second-rounders are worth less than one first-rounder--and Iginla got a first-rounder on TOP of a return that was commensurate with 2 second-round picks anyway.

The return for Morrow was objectively the worst of all of them, which makes sense considering who he is. But in order to get the medium-level prospect they wanted, Dallas had to throw in a draft pick-for lower-draft-pick swap. This tells you what you need to know about this market. Let's not pretend that the Morrow trade was something it wasn't.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

This is kind of circular reasoning, no?

Essentially, you're arguing that even though the market for players is probably consistent with what Feaster got for Iginla and Bouwmeester, that he's the reason the market is set there, and that therefore it's his fault.

Not to mention that the returns for Morrow, Murray and Regehr are in fact quite consistent with the market value for other players. Murray and Regehr got the same return, 2 second-round picks. In an objective sense, 2 second-rounders are worth less than one first-rounder--and Iginla got a first-rounder on TOP of a return that was commensurate with 2 second-round picks anyway.

The return for Morrow was objectively the worst of all of them, which makes sense considering who he is. But in order to get the medium-level prospect they wanted, Dallas had to throw in a draft pick-for lower-draft-pick swap. This tells you what you need to know about this market. Let's not pretend that the Morrow trade was something it wasn't.

No, I think you misunderstood me. I don't think the market is consistent with what Feaster got for Iginla and Bouwmeester. The returns for much worse players (Morrow, Murray, Regher) indicate that Feaster didn't get fair value for what he was selling. Bob McKenzie and others even commented on this. The NTC/NMC excuse doesn't work either, as other GM's found ways to work around that without sacrificing the return

The Jagr deal came after the Iginla deal, so I was speculating that the Iginla trade may have affected the Jagr return since they are somewhat similar. It very well may have not affected it

Your second part makes zero sense to me. You point out that a late first pick is better than 2 2nds, which is true, but then say that Morrow fetched the worst return, even though his return was a late first round draft pick who has only improved since he was drafted. There is no way Joe Morrow is a worse return than two 2nds, and he is probably a better return than what Iginla fetched.

For Bouwmeester the return should have been higher because two rival teams were bidding on him, he had another year left on his deal, and the Flames could have retained part of his salary. If he was only a rental player then the trade would have been fine, but people in the hockey world were very surprised with what the Flames settled for

[BloodFetish]

Originally Posted by #-3

I can just hear Dallas Now "Damn you Feester, you've deflated the trade market for sellers everywhere."

Sweet Jeebus. The more trades we see and the more it seems Feaster got market value for both Iginla and Bouwmeester, and you still find a way to get your little dig in. Nice work!

[You Need a Thneed]

Of all the selling trades so far, the Flames have the #1 (Bouw trade) and #2 (Iginla trade) best returns so far, IMO.

Morrow might be the best prospect traded (I have no idea), but Dallas got LESS than morrow back in that trade.

Two second rounders is worth less than a first round pick.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Of all the selling trades so far, the Flames have the #1 (Bouw trade) and #2 (Iginla trade) best returns so far, IMO.

They also gave up the #1, and #2 best players though, and by a long shot. The fact that the return for Morrow, Murray, Regher etc is even comparable to the return for Iggy and Bouw is why the Flames got a bad return

We'll see what 1-goal Clowe fetches as well

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by neo45

No, I think you misunderstood me. I don't think the market is consistent with what Feaster got for Iginla and Bouwmeester. The returns for much worse players (Morrow, Murray, Regher) indicate that Feaster didn't get fair value for what he was selling. Bob McKenzie and others even commented on this. The NTC/NMC excuse doesn't work either, as other GM's found ways to work around that without sacrificing the return

The Jagr deal came after the Iginla deal, so I was speculating that the Iginla trade may have affected the Jagr return since they are somewhat similar. It very well may have not affected it

Your second part makes zero sense to me. You point out that a late first pick is better than 2 2nds, which is true, but then say that Morrow fetched the worst return, even though his return was a late first round draft pick who has only improved since he was drafted. There is no way Joe Morrow is a worse return than two 2nds, and he is probably a better return than what Iginla fetched.

For Bouwmeester the return should have been higher because two rival teams were bidding on him, he had another year left on his deal, and the Flames could have retained part of his salary. If he was only a rental player then the trade would have been fine, but people in the hockey world were very surprised with what the Flames settled for

I'm not too persuaded by "people in the hockey world" to be honest. That's the sort of appeal to the masses people make when they don't have much of a rhetorical leg to stand on.

I'm also not persuaded that the Morrow trade was all it was cracked up to be. Don't forget that Dallas had to package a 3rd in exchange for a late-5th rounder in order to make that happen--and Joe Morrow, who may well be a great NHLer one day, is not that yet.

He is the best prospect we've seen traded, but let's not forget he's a -7 in 57 games on an AHL team whose GF/GA are even--indeed, his +/- (which I will agree is a flawed stat) is fifth-worst on his AHL team. He's also been a healthy scratch 8 times in the AHL. He's not knocking on the door of the NHL by any means; maybe he'll get a better chance in Dallas, but I am not one who thinks that Pittsburgh took the worst of this deal.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by neo45

They also gave up the #1, and #2 best players though, and by a long shot. The fact that the return for Morrow, Murray, Regher etc is even comparable to the return for Iggy and Bouw is why the Flames got a bad return

It isn't comparable though. I don't know why people are even attempting to compare 2 2nd's to a first. If Jay Bouwmeester brought back two 2nd round picks everyone would be up in arms about it. The amount of posts saying "why the hell couldn't we get a first" would be numerous.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by neo45

They also gave up the #1, and #2 best players though, and by a long shot. The fact that the return for Morrow, Murray, Regher etc is even comparable to the return for Iggy and Bouw is why the Flames got a bad return

We'll see what 1-goal Clowe fetches as well

Why do people keep over valuing Clowe? He has 0 goals not 1.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

It isn't comparable though. I don't know why people are even attempting to compare 2 2nd's to a first. If Jay Bouwmeester brought back two 2nd round picks everyone would be up in arms about it. The amount of posts saying "why the hell couldn't we get a first" would be numerous.

Well, comparable doesn't mean equal, or even close. So yes the returns are comparable.

The difference between the returns does not make up for the difference in quality between Iggy and Morrow

[sun]

I like how Nieuwy signed Jagr as a UFA and now flipped him at the deadline for picks and prospects. Could potentially be a first rounder for 4.5M(I think). Plus, you get a year of Jagr on your team.

Hopefully we're able to flip some UFAs like that at the deadline next season.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by neo45

Well, comparable doesn't mean equal, or even close. So yes the returns are comparable.

The difference between the returns does not make up for the difference in quality between Iggy and Morrow

Going around in circles but if Iginla chose Pittsburgh and only Pittsburgh that would impact value.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by sun

I like how Nieuwy signed Jagr as a UFA and now flipped him at the deadline for picks and prospects. Could potentially be a first rounder for 4.5M(I think). Plus, you get a year of Jagr on your team.

Hopefully we're able to flip some UFAs like that at the deadline next season.

I hope so. I wouldn't even be opposed to bringing Jagr to Calgary for 4.5

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by sun

I like how Nieuwy signed Jagr as a UFA and now flipped him at the deadline for picks and prospects. Could potentially be a first rounder for 4.5M(I think). Plus, you get a year of Jagr on your team.

Hopefully we're able to flip some UFAs like that at the deadline next season.

Joe Nieuwendyk must be some sort of jeenius.

Didn't he go to an Ivy League school like feaster?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

It isn't comparable though. I don't know why people are even attempting to compare 2 2nd's to a first. If Jay Bouwmeester brought back two 2nd round picks everyone would be up in arms about it. The amount of posts saying "why the hell couldn't we get a first" would be numerous.

Yeah I think its beyond obvious now that the market isnt what the talking heads in media (big surprise eh?) and maniacal fans assumed it would be whne this stuff started heating up.

As someone else so succinctly put it, its not the sellers market that many thought it would be not because there are so few selling teams, but there are very few buyers thus far as well.

Feaster has actually done extremely well when you step back and look at things. I still dont trust him to be the guy using those acquired picks to change the fortunes of the Flames long term, but there is no denying he has done a good job getting what he has.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Going around in circles but if Iginla chose Pittsburgh and only Pittsburgh that would impact value.

Ya. But we can also speculate based on the fact that Boston's offer of Koko +2nd wasn't enough to get Morrow from Dallas, but Koko + 1st was enough to get Iginla from Feaster. So there is that side of the coin as well

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by neo45

Well, comparable doesn't mean equal, or even close. So yes the returns are comparable.

The difference between the returns does not make up for the difference in quality between Iggy and Morrow

Iggy's return is MUCH greater than Morrow's return.

Murray returned a 2nd rounder and a 2nd/3rd rounder a year from now.

Regher returned a 2nd rounder a year from now (worth less than a 2nd rounder now), and another 2nd rounder two years from now.

Morrow returned less than one prospect.

Jagr's return is the third best, and may be similar to Iggy's if Boston wins two rounds. But for now, I'll take the guaranteed 25-30th pick over what might be a 25th - 30th pick, but might be a 52-55th pick.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by neo45

They also gave up the #1, and #2 best players though, and by a long shot. The fact that the return for Morrow, Murray, Regher etc is even comparable to the return for Iggy and Bouw is why the Flames got a bad return

We'll see what 1-goal Clowe fetches as well

We didn't give up the best two players by far.

Iggy and Jagr are very comparable right now as rentals. Jagr has better numbers, Iggy is more physical. The only reason Iggy is slightly more valuable is the ability to resign him for 3 more years.

To say Iggy will contribute significantly more than jagr as a rental in this playoffs his just homer glasses.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by GGG

We didn't give up the best two players by far.

Iggy and Jagr are very comparable right now as rentals. Jagr has better numbers, Iggy is more physical. The only reason Iggy is slightly more valuable is the ability to resign him for 3 more years.

To say Iggy will contribute significantly more than jagr as a rental in this playoffs his just homer glasses.

Can Jagr shed his bucket and beat Ryane Clowe in a fight?

Iggy is much more valuable because he is younger, more well rounded, and plays playoff style hockey. Jagr was terrible when it mattered last year. Iggy also brings more leadership, and things of that sort, to the table than Jagr does. They have pretty much the same numbers anyways

[Locke]

Wow, if the Bruins the conference then the pick becomes a first rounder.

Dallas will receive no worse than a second round pick from Boston. If the Bruins reach the Eastern Conference Finals this season, the pick will become a first-rounder.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=419676

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Locke

Wow, if the Bruins the conference then the pick becomes a first rounder.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=419676

Smart play from both sides.