US Ambassador to Lybia, along with 3 others, killed

[driveway]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

I'm not sure you understand what I said.

It was these two things you said:

There is a very large difference between, on the one hand, believing in some sort of guilt by association due to belonging to the same religion, ... I do not, for a single moment, believe people completely unrelated to the actions should apologize simply because they happen to belong to the same religion.

And I disagree. I believe there is guilt-by-association and I also believe that people unrelated to the actions should apologize.

For example: as a white person I feel a degree of guilt-by-association when white-supremicists engage in violence and I believe I owe the minority community both an apology for the actions of people with whom I only share a skin colour and also personal effort to reduce the harm the actions of other white people have caused as well as their capacity to cause harm in the future.

Likewise, I consider moderate Christians to have guilt-by-association when the fringe members of their religion push for changes to school curriculums to include creationism, or when small, well-organized groups make strong movements to limit the rights and freedoms of others.

I believe that members of a community bear some responsibility for the actions of all members of that community. The degree of responsibility varies depending on the circumstances, but I do not believe it is ever zero.

In the particular case of Islamic violence in response to perceived insults I believe that the strongest condemnations, calls to action, and responses should be coming from the moderate Islamic community. I know this has happened to some degree, but I want to see that pressure continually applied, so that in five years someone can write a new Satanic Verses and not have to go into hiding for twenty years.

This has been a serious problem with Islam for decades and whatever efforts moderate muslims have made to curtail it have clearly been insufficient to the point of complete failure, which I think only increases the culpability of moderate muslims in this situation.

[burn_this_city]

I don't buy into the guilt by association theory at all. Lets face it, there are crazy people from every demographic, why should I apologize for someone else when I have no influence on that person or their actions? Pretty twisted logic in my opinion.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by driveway

Protests spread to Yemen, US Embassy in Yemen stormed

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...88C0AM20120913

Yemen is the new Afghanistan for Al-Qaeda. Yemen is their strongest base of operations. Not surprising that the US Embassy was attacked there. These attacks are Al-Qaeda driven. Too bad so many Middle Eastern Muslims are unable to think for themselves and are so prone to violence, when their religion is slighted.

[NBC]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

"The Last Temptation of Christ", hugely controversial depiction of Jesus, multimillion dollar Hollywood film, no riots from Christians....

"The Passion of the Christ", hugely controversial for its perceived anti-semitism, multimillion dollar Hollywood film, no riots from Jews...

All anti-Islam films have been poorly produced pieces of crap and yet they all lose their collective isht every single time this happens. Its simply ingrained in the religion, that when someone disagrees or is even slightly intolerant of Islam, they need to be killed. How exactly you defeat that can of mentality I really don't know, which is why I think its pointless to even try.

Really? This isn't how I remember events. There were picket lines and protests in opposition to the release of the film. Not to mention the following:

On October 22, 1988, a French Christian fundamentalist group launched Molotov cocktails inside the Parisian Saint Michel movie theater while it was showing the film. This attack injured thirteen people, four of whom were severely burned. The Saint Michel theater was heavily damaged, and reopened 3 years later after restoration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Las...eater.2C_Paris

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I don't buy into the guilt by association theory at all. Lets face it, there are crazy people from every demographic, why should I apologize for someone else when I have no influence on that person or their actions? Pretty twisted logic in my opinion.

Most people equate silence with condoneing.... or at the minimum ambivalene towards their actions.

If you see a crime being committed and you ignore it and don't speak up against it, you in some ways are just as bad as the criminal.

[FlameOn]

NYTimes and a CSM are reporting the film that sparked all these riots may not have existed at all and it seems like the poor quality video was re-purposed and doctored.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/wo...pagewanted=all
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backc...c-movie-at-all

Meanwhile the protests have spread to Yemen, Tunisia, Iran, Gaza along with Egypt and Libya. So much for the Arab spring bettering these countries
http://www.aljazeera.com/video/middl...543708779.html

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

"The Last Temptation of Christ", hugely controversial depiction of Jesus, multimillion dollar Hollywood film, no riots from Christians....

"The Passion of the Christ", hugely controversial for its perceived anti-semitism, multimillion dollar Hollywood film, no riots from Jews...

All anti-Islam films have been poorly produced pieces of crap and yet they all lose their collective isht every single time this happens.

It's because they haven't gotten a big budget movie yet. Parity is key for religious peace.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by driveway

It was these two things you said:



And I disagree. I believe there is guilt-by-association and I also believe that people unrelated to the actions should apologize.

For example: as a white person I feel a degree of guilt-by-association when white-supremicists engage in violence and I believe I owe the minority community both an apology for the actions of people with whom I only share a skin colour and also personal effort to reduce the harm the actions of other white people have caused as well as their capacity to cause harm in the future.

Likewise, I consider moderate Christians to have guilt-by-association when the fringe members of their religion push for changes to school curriculums to include creationism, or when small, well-organized groups make strong movements to limit the rights and freedoms of others.

I believe that members of a community bear some responsibility for the actions of all members of that community. The degree of responsibility varies depending on the circumstances, but I do not believe it is ever zero.

In the particular case of Islamic violence in response to perceived insults I believe that the strongest condemnations, calls to action, and responses should be coming from the moderate Islamic community. I know this has happened to some degree, but I want to see that pressure continually applied, so that in five years someone can write a new Satanic Verses and not have to go into hiding for twenty years.

This has been a serious problem with Islam for decades and whatever efforts moderate muslims have made to curtail it have clearly been insufficient to the point of complete failure, which I think only increases the culpability of moderate muslims in this situation.

Completely and utterly disagree. My fiancee, using her as an example, has absolutely no ties to these people that stormed the Libyan embassy and has absolutely zero need to apologize for their actions. To imply that she is somehow also guilty because of the actions of others that killed and destroyed is, to put it bluntly, extremely offensive to me and has to be insulting to her, and treads on dangerous territory when looking to lay blame for any multitude of things. To believe that people all over the world, merely due to the fact they belong to the same religion (nevermind if they even belong to the same religious sect, unless you think Muslims all believe the same thing), all share in the guilt of these murders and crimes, regardless of the perpetrators own freedom of choice, must mean you also believe they are, at least in part, to blame, too. This kind of position is so divisive and fallacious I don't even know where to begin.

What do you do for a living? If someone that does the same work as you commits a crime, do you carry around a burden of guilt and feel the need to apologize to everyone because you do the same job? Do you feel the need to apologize to other white people when another white person kills someone, or is it only in the case of racial acts (you honestly think "white people" is a community?) Should Wahhabists apologize for the acts of Wahhabists, or do Shi'ites also need to apologize? Alawites? I'm guessing you must also be a big proponent of reparations, then?

Also, define "community," because the actual definition of the word implies, at minimum, some sort of interaction with the individuals of said community. How you can possibly blame in part people on the other side of the world, let alone the other side of the country, that have no role in these crimes, is beyond me. You must carry around a lot of guilt, because using your logic, I could lay a whole lot of things at your feet and claim you to be partially to blame.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by NBC

Really? This isn't how I remember events. There were picket lines and protests in opposition to the release of the film. Not to mention the following:

On October 22, 1988, a French Christian fundamentalist group launched Molotov cocktails inside the Parisian Saint Michel movie theater while it was showing the film. This attack injured thirteen people, four of whom were severely burned. The Saint Michel theater was heavily damaged, and reopened 3 years later after restoration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Las...eater.2C_Paris

That strikes me more of an isolated incident. And there's a difference between a protest and storming foreign embassies. I don't think anyone was looking to storm Hollywood after TLTOC came out. By the end of the week I expect every Muslim dominated country will have similar protests/riots/incidents going on.

[Hemi-Cuda]

the dumbest part of all this is that i bet almost all of these protestors haven't even seen the movie, or know anything about it other than it insults their religion. and that's all it takes, just one guy to scream that someone insulted Mohammed and the mob goes wild. religion of peace my ass

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

the dumbest part of all this is that i bet almost all of these protestors haven't even seen the movie, or know anything about it other than it insults their religion. and that's all it takes, just one guy to scream that someone insulted Mohammed and the mob goes wild. religion of peace my ass

Chances are they haven't seen the film, but are being told its a full length motion picture being produced by Jewish Hollywood and funded by the US government. These people are poor and uneducated, and whipped into a frenzy by crooked imams for political reasons. They probably aren't being told that it's a poorly dubbed joke of a trailer made by equally uneducated bigots in the US who spend their time staking out mosques to watch for terrorists.

This isn't a million man march against the US embassies, its a couple hundred to a thousands people out of millions. Lets keep a bit of perspective.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

religion of peace my ass

Is there even such a thing? Seems like every one of them has violence in their past.

I guess the closest would be Buddhism. While I'm sure they too have some dark elements, at least they seem to keep things relatively low-key in comparison.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

the dumbest part of all this is that i bet almost all of these protestors haven't even seen the movie, or know anything about it other than it insults their religion. and that's all it takes, just one guy to scream that someone insulted Mohammed and the mob goes wild. religion of peace my ass

Like most forms of population control, it's the poverty and lack of education that are more to blame here than whatever some book says. I don't believe Islam to be more or less violent than earlier, more impoverished forms of Christianity.

Things were not always this bad in the Muslim world.

It's the sheltered minds that I weep for.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Completely and utterly disagree. My fiancee, using her as an example, has absolutely no ties to these people that stormed the Libyan embassy and has absolutely zero need to apologize for their actions. To imply that she is somehow also guilty because of the actions of others that killed and destroyed is, to put it bluntly, extremely offensive to me and has to be insulting to her, and treads on dangerous territory when looking to lay blame for any multitude of things. To believe that people all over the world, merely due to the fact they belong to the same religion (nevermind if they even belong to the same religious sect, unless you think Muslims all believe the same thing), all share in the guilt of these murders and crimes, regardless of the perpetrators own freedom of choice, must mean you also believe they are, at least in part, to blame, too. This kind of position is so divisive and fallacious I don't even know where to begin.

What do you do for a living? If someone that does the same work as you commits a crime, do you carry around a burden of guilt and feel the need to apologize to everyone because you do the same job? Do you feel the need to apologize to other white people when another white person kills someone, or is it only in the case of racial acts (you honestly think "white people" is a community?) Should Wahhabists apologize for the acts of Wahhabists, or do Shi'ites also need to apologize? Alawites? I'm guessing you must also be a big proponent of reparations, then?

Also, define "community," because the actual definition of the word implies, at minimum, some sort of interaction with the individuals of said community. How you can possibly blame in part people on the other side of the world, let alone the other side of the country, that have no role in these crimes, is beyond me. You must carry around a lot of guilt, because using your logic, I could lay a whole lot of things at your feet and claim you to be partially to blame.

I agree a lot with what you have said... that being said, I think a lot of us are looking for leadership and condemnation by Muslims of influence in the Middle East. In a lot of cases, now and in the past, the silence has been deafening. What is the world to think when this happens?

[carom]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

the dumbest part of all this is that i bet almost all of these protestors haven't even seen the movie, or know anything about it other than it insults their religion. and that's all it takes, just one guy to scream that someone insulted Mohammed and the mob goes wild. religion of peace my ass

Actually I read in a newspaper here that interviewed a number of the protesters and they said that they had watched it.

A couple things to consider:

-the producers claim that they are not sure who dub'd an Arabic version of the trailers on YouTube. Hmmm.

-in the immediate aftermath the film was said to have been financed by expat Egyptian Copts in the states. Obviously that is not the case now, but there is a recent history in Egypt of animosity between the Muslims and the Copts. It makes me think that this film was made with the explicit purpose of pissing people off and inciting violence.

[carom]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Say what? Population of Cairo is 7 million. Regardless, not sure why you would be worried living in a more populous city. They tend to be more multicultural, and therefore more tolerant.

Unless you're a woman of course. In which case you're not really a person according to them.



Everyone is in the wrong? One group just murdered innocent people in the name of blasphemy. The other made a youtube movie.

The two do not in any way equate.

Freedom of expression (including that which offends) is important, which is why enlightened societies around the world have laws protecting it.

If a religion is so easily incited to violence through cartoons and youtube videos, maybe there needs to be an acknowledgement there is something wrong with it. We aren't talking about 50 guys burning crosses because they are a bunch of stupid rednecks. We're talking protests in the thousands because they honestly believe the Koran is the word of God, and you shouldn't show a picture of their idol.

That's pretty messed up.

First of all, from Wikipedia (grain of salt) but Greater Cairo: Population (1 January 2010)
#•#Total 19,622,652
#
Second of all, I never said they have the same burdon of guilt, but they are both wrong. Willfully inciting violence and committing violence are both bad things and should not happen.

And honestly the majority of the world believe in some form of faith. To me believing in something that cannot be proven is kinda crazy.

[carom]

The always rare triple post, but I thought I would share this:

The Egyptian government called the assault unjustified and said the US government could not be held responsible.
..
Brotherhood secretary-general Mahmoud Hussein called for a "peaceful protest to condemn insults to religious convictions and insults to the Prophet", adding it would start after noon prayers on Friday in front of main mosques across Egypt.

http://213.158.162.45/~egyptian/inde...%20over%20film

Needless to say, I am staying at the hotel on Friday

[Calgary4LIfe]

There is never an excuse for violence. People need to grow thicker skins.

However...

People need to be more respectful of one another in this world. It isn't just religion. It is about everything. Why does Islam apparently 'hate' the west? Anyone here actually follow history?

Look at the terrible 'evil' country in the world - Iran. Look up the history of what happened there. Look at what BP's role was in ousting a DEMOCRATICALLY elected and responsible government so that England can continue to 'rape' that country for its' oil.

The western world has often removed democratic governments and replaced them with dictators - South America, Asia, Africa and even in Europe. This is no big 'secret' - and if this is news to you, you really need to start reading a bit more.

In the middle east, the favored type of 'regimes' were Islamic regimes. Did the people support them? Sure, some did, but in most cases they were BRUTAL and OPPRESSIVE governments that only the people in power wanted. The USA preferred these regimes to be in place over democratically elected governments why? To ensure a cheap and steady supply of oil, and to support their anti-communist (which had nothing to do with communism at all - the US cold war was really about the sphere of influence and power in the world one nation to another, not any political system rhetoric) ideals that the west was striving for.

Who really suffered in the cold war? Everyone else in the world took the brunt of it.

Why were people celebrating in the streets (yes, they were indeed celebrating in certain parts of the middle east) when 9/11 happened? For years, they started seeing how the west was oppressive and untouchable. They were seen as an 'enemy' - and quite frankly, has the western world been much other than an enemy?

Religion is much more complicated than just "why do these idiots fight over which fairy-tale is right'? Seriously, are you guys kidding me? You don't see how this is offensive to ANYONE who is religious? You are only kidding yourselves if you feel you are more 'enlightened' by saying stupid rubbish like this. How hypocritical are some people?

It is fine not to believe in religions. It is fine to to discuss them, and express your views. What is not fine is to disrespect people's values. That is what happened here with this movie (and what a few posters seem to like to do - here and in the goth-guy thread).

For a point of reference, I am a non-practicing Roman Catholic. I don't go to church, I don't pray, and usually I don't even think about God. I sometimes swing from being that, to an atheist even. What I don't think is 'ok' is for me to tell someone there religion is WRONG - I remember some Jehovah witnesses going from door to door doing exactly that. My mom made the mistake of opening the door, not knowing who they were. She was a deeply religious Roman Catholic, and these women told her: "You and your children will go to hell because you are in the wrong religion" (I am not kidding - these were the actual words that lady told us).

Religious intolerance is.. not to be tolerated. However, you don't gain that tolerance by 'attacking' them like this. All it does is increase religious fervor and makes people feel they are threatened. It puts into power charismatic leaders who push their own agendas, not the agendas of what the religion is supposed to do.

This isn't as simple as "there was an insulting movie, but the Muslims are taking it too far". They attacked the embassies because they are outraged over being 'attacked' in this manner, and how the US government would allow this 'attack' to take place on them (which is still wrong, but that is why that happened).

This movie was meant to incite. Mission accomplished. It is sad that the violence happened, but it was definitely the intended purpose of this 'movie'.

This wasn't a 'critical' movie - just watch some of it. It wasn't meant to be critical of Islam. The ability to be critical is what is intrinsic to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in this case, however, only served to allow and protect someone from inciting outrage on 1/5th of the world. There is a difference. The people who ended up on the street VIOLENTLY demonstrating (rioting) were as much in the wrong. The victims were the people who died, and everyone else in the world as well, regardless of your beliefs.

As for why the people in Palestine were 'celebrating' the events on 9/11 - the answer doesn't begin and end with Islam. It begins and ends with politics that have been going on in the middle east for 50 years.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

The Salafi Call, an influential group of ultra-orthodox Salafi Muslim sheikhs, called for "suspending any cooperation between the two countries until (the US government) takes practical measures to stop this farce," it said in a statement.

What do they want the U.S. government to do, stop freedom of speech? This wasn't a government-sponsored movie, it was some random idiot that nobody really knows about, or his whereabouts.

These guys are so busy getting everyone riled up that they're not even making sense.

[nik-]

I'm also a non-practicing Catholic and I think what we need is a good ole' fashioned Crusade!

Who's with me!?



HEY! EVERYONE ... WE'RE GOING CRUSADING THROUGH THE QUAD!