Tiger Woods in a car crash.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Cycling is the dirtiest sport I’ve ever seen. It’s the only sport where you NEED to use performance enhancers or competing at the highest level is impossible.

Icarus is a must watch documentary.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

I think there is a difference between it being nice for him to pay and expecting him to pay.

Then getting mad at him when he didn't? To me that's ridiculous.

I'm sure Tiger Woods thinks that hanging out with Tiger Woods is the prize. I think Tiger Woods playing fake Navy Seal is ridiculous.

[Flamenspiel]

I have never been a fan of Woods, but I don’t buy the amateur psychoanalysis and sketchy media gossip. Second best after Jack, that will be his legacy.

[mrkajz44]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I have never been a fan of Woods, but I don’t buy the amateur psychoanalysis and sketchy media gossip. Second best after Jack, that will be his legacy.

I think I agree with this mostly. Only addition I'd make is he changed golf forever - what we watch today is pretty much a direct result of how he played the game. Guys are now more athletic, hit the ball way further, and courses are much longer as a result. He was the first guy to really bomb it off the tee but still have the touch to bring the game together.

[RichieRich]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Cycling is the dirtiest sport I’ve ever seen. It’s the only sport where you NEED to use performance enhancers or competing at the highest level is impossible.

oh you are so "in the dark". Cycling certainly has had its' problems, however I guarantee you that NBA NFL CFL NHL would all be shut down in an instant if the same criteria, testing, and consequences were applied.

As for Lance... he was made a scape goat largely by the USDA. Virtually every other top 10 rider during his era has also been proven as a doper, but many of them still have cycling-related careers and/or have not been demonized... and none of them are US riders. So it's a cultural difference too.

anyways... WAAAAY off topic here...

[Number 39]

Lance also didn't help himself by being a jerk and a bully to many in the sport who blew the whistle on him.

[afc wimbledon]

There has never, in the 100 plus years of Tour history, from the early days when cyclists used cocaine dissolved in Brandy to stay awake and riding to the advent of amphetamines in the thirties through to the sixties and then the rise of steroids and PED's been a clean winner in the Tour, there isnt now, doping in cycling has never been considered cheating, it is a team sport, the teams organise the doping, the race organisers warned the teams when they where going to be tested and colluded to make sure the teams could use, in fact what blew the lid on doping in cycling was a team van was caught by border guards taking a back road to cross the border into France from Luxemburg during the Tour and was packed to the gills with PEDS roids etc.
The great Jacques Anquetil 5 time tour winner '57 and then '61 to '64 straight when asked about dope was candid, his two famous quotes where 'leave me alone, everybody dopes!' and 'you think we can ride those mountains on water alone?'

Lance Armstrong was screwed over because he was American, and for once Amercans who know absolutly nothing about the Tour became interested in a sport where the riders all use, Lance became the whipping boy for typical American double standards over drug use, if he had been French the US would have carried on happily ignoring a sport that totally condones drug use and always has, no one gives a toss that Indurin used, the whole affair was hypocrisy beyond measure

[RichieRich]

Originally Posted by Number 39

Lance also didn't help himself by being a jerk and a bully to many in the sport who blew the whistle on him.

That may be an understatement. He's brilliant on many levels, but that came with insane pride and being a control-freak, and thus earned the big fall from grace. And yes, he had more than enough enablers through his team management and sponsors, most of whom got away with marginal/zero repercussions.


Good timing on this article which just came out
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/phi...-cheat-to-win/

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Number 39

Lance also didn't help himself by being a jerk and a bully to many in the sport who blew the whistle on him.

I can even forgive him this to a degree as the guys who were blowing the whistle on him were all just as culpable in the drug use, all had happily taken part in the the drug use and benefitted from it only to rat Armstrong out to save themselves, the code in cycling was clear, you keep your mouth shut, take your race ban and come back in a few months.

What the USDA did was orchestrate the other riders 'confessions' that they only took drugs because Armstrong coerced or forced them to, it was all utter bull****

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Lance Armstrong was screwed over because he was American, and for once Amercans who know absolutly nothing about the Tour became interested in a sport where the riders all use, Lance became the whipping boy for typical American double standards over drug use, if he had been French the US would have carried on happily ignoring a sport that totally condones drug use and always has, no one gives a toss that Indurin used, the whole affair was hypocrisy beyond measure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

you'll have to explain that one, I cant see any what about in it

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I have never been a fan of Woods, but I don’t buy the amateur psychoanalysis and sketchy media gossip. Second best after Jack, that will be his legacy.

I disagree, Jack never had the consistent competition against him that Tiger had, from 99 to 2010 he was so dominate players were publicly saying they were playing for 2nd place and even golf courses had to make changes because of him (Tiger proofing)

I doubt you'll find anyone who follows golf putting Nicklaus ahead of Woods, Even Jack knows a healthy Woods would have crushed his major's record long ago.

Personally I'm not even sure Nicklaus is the 2nd best player ever

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I can even forgive him this to a degree as the guys who were blowing the whistle on him were all just as culpable in the drug use, all had happily taken part in the the drug use and benefitted from it only to rat Armstrong out to save themselves, the code in cycling was clear, you keep your mouth shut, take your race ban and come back in a few months.

What the USDA did was orchestrate the other riders 'confessions' that they only took drugs because Armstrong coerced or forced them to, it was all utter bull****

for his endevours outside of cycling, they were based on his reputation of being a clean athlete and good role model.
considering he was a lying, cheating, piece of crap person, I don't care he got punished more than others.

he wasn't screwed out of anything. he got his just desserts.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I disagree, Jack never had the consistent competition against him that Tiger had, from 99 to 2010 he was so dominate players were publicly saying they were playing for 2nd place and even golf courses had to make changes because of him (Tiger proofing)

I doubt you'll find anyone who follows golf putting Nicklaus ahead of Woods, Even Jack knows a healthy Woods would have crushed his major's record long ago.

Personally I'm not even sure Nicklaus is the 2nd best player ever

You can argue Tiger was better than Jack, though it is really hard to compare eras and the changes in technology when deciding who is best of all time.

But that bolded is preposterous.

I mean the man won 18 majors and finished 2nd 19 times. 56 top 5 finishes.....in majors alone!

117 wins as a professional and a stellar amateur career that included 2 US amateurs before all that.

Snead won more tournaments but far fewer majors, and certainly at a time when the competition was no where near what either Jack or Tiger faced.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I disagree, Jack never had the consistent competition against him that Tiger had, from 99 to 2010 he was so dominate players were publicly saying they were playing for 2nd place and even golf courses had to make changes because of him (Tiger proofing)

Quite a bit wrong with this statement and does not take into consideration the historical or systemic significance of each time period.

Nicklaus faced plenty of competition, a lot of it not on the course. Nicklaus did what he did at a time when players drove between events, across the country, and played for their living. They did not have the multi-million dollar sponsorship deals that covered their whole nut for several life times already in the bag. This was a time when players were true professionals and grinded out a living. Today's players are spoiled little brats who come from money and don't have to play for it. Golf is very much an elite sport because of the cost to get to the level those players are at.

Nicklaus had to face the wrath of the fans when he first came onto the tour. He had to beat the players on the course but also had to battle against Arnie's Army. This was no easy feat. The intimidation and jeering was well known and Nicklaus handled himself like a true gentleman as he won tournaments and fans. Tiger never had to face this. Woods was a phenom coming onto the tour and the PGA did everything in their power to shield their rising star who "would bring golf to the masses." When Tiger got the massive endorsement deals, the preferential treatment for Woods became a real problem with the other players on the tour. The new following that came to the game because of Woods were not there to see the game and the other players, they were there to see the media creation that was Tiger Woods. The regular tour players had to fight similar circumstances that Nicklaus faced when he first came up, only magnified because of the new size of crowds and the enhanced TV coverage. Woods had an advantage that no player in the history of the game had, and the PGA bowed to him and the money at every twist and turn.

One of the things that is really under-rated when it comes to new versus old players is the family commitment. During Nicklaus' time all the players were raising families while playing. The commitment here is incredible because of the travel and limited resources on the tour at the time. This put a ton of pressure on players that today's players can't appreciate. The conversation was always what would slow Tiger down, and the smart response was marriage and children. It was some what accurate, but it was the breakup of his marriage and loss of his children that was the chink in the armor. So even with all the advantages of having this massive fiscal war chest, a very complaint PGA, and an entourage to do things for him, the family angle still brought him down. The fact that the players from yesteryear were able to compete and raise families without massive help is something that should not be under estimated. Nicklaus' success during this time was another statement about his talent and resolve.

The final and most important factor in the difference between times is technology. Private jets have really changed the game. Video was a game changer, but the launch monitor continues to change the game. Bryson Dechambeau would not be doing what he is doing without the aid of a launch monitor and technology. Clubs today are so forgiving that mi####s rarely happen for these guys. And that technology extends to flub faces, club shafts, and tuning of each of the components to build the perfect club for the player. In fact, technology is so good that a few players prefer to play with older clubs because they allow for the working of the ball. And then there is the ball. Oh my lord, what an advantage the players of today have that players of yesteryear did not get to take advantage of. The players of today would struggle if they had to play with the persimmon woods, butter knife blades with sweets spots as small and as hard to find as the mysterious g spot, and balata balls that cut when you looked at them the wrong way. The game has evolved because the technology has leapt so far forward. When weekend warriors are hitting the ball 50 yards past where Niklaus and Palmer (bombers of their day) hit the ball, technology has gone too far and provided an immeasurable advantage.

I doubt you'll find anyone who follows golf putting Nicklaus ahead of Woods, Even Jack knows a healthy Woods would have crushed his major's record long ago.

Have to disagree with this. There are more than enough people who know the history of the game and the evolution of the sport to recognize Nicklaus would be a dominant player in any era and still the greatest in the sport. I spent multiple years in the business at the height of Tigermania and even then those who knew the game and earned a living in it knew Tiger couldn't hold a candle to Nicklaus, for all the reasons above. Tiger was a player, but he had many things working to his advantage when he was king. But like a round of golf, being the greatest requires a significant commitment to grinding it out until the final ball is holed. Ironically Tiger's own self-destructive behaviors are what derailed him and prevented him from testing the theory of his greatness. So while there are those who will argue that Lemieux was the greatest player of all time it is still Gretzky who holds all the records. Until someone comes along and actually tops those golf records, Nicklaus is the greatest of all time.

[mrkajz44]

Originally Posted by New Era

Clubs today are so forgiving that mi####s rarely happen for these guys.

I have nothing to add except I find it hilarious that the swear filter activated because the spelling of a swear was included in a normal word.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

for his endevours outside of cycling, they were based on his reputation of being a clean athlete and good role model.
considering he was a lying, cheating, piece of crap person, I don't care he got punished more than others.

he wasn't screwed out of anything. he got his just desserts.

No one in their right mind thought Lance Armstrong was clean, he never had a reputation for being clean, the only rider that has ever claimed to be clean is Greg Lemond and only an idiot would believe that either.

Only in North America where they didnt know crap about cycling did anyone think Armstrong, or any cyclist was clean, and only Armstrong has had his records expunged even though every other tour winner who has been caught cheating (pretty much all of them in his era) and in most cases have admitted to using still have their records in the books.

To put it a way you might get this is the equivalent of a French anti violence in sports body strong arming the NHL into expunging every record of Iginla's because he has fighting majors while ignoring every other player, and so we are clear doping in cycling is seen by the sport as exactly the same as fighting in hockey, its part of the history and tradition of the sport, its part of what makes pro cycling cycling, it's not technically legal but the sport condones it unofficially

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

never had the consistent competition against him

so dominate players were publicly saying they were playing for 2nd

You could say this is two ways to say the same thing.

[CliffFletcher]

The problem with Armstrong is due to his Tour wins and bout with cancer, he attracted a huge American fanbase that knew nothing about him or the sport. Even casual followers of cycling like me knew Armstrong was a ruthless egomaniac from day one, even by the standards of a sport full of ruthless egomaniacs. Of course he doped.

But the new fans would have none of it - the criticism of Armstrong was just anti-American jealousy. And he had cancer you know (I guess getting cancer makes you a good person for some reason). Armstrong’s fall from grace was due to America’s peculiar brand of hero-worship more than anything else.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The problem with Armstrong is due to his Tour wins and bout with cancer, he attracted a huge American fanbase that knew nothing about him or the sport. Even casual followers of cycling like me knew Armstrong was a ruthless egomaniac from day one, even by the standards of a sport full of ruthless egomaniacs. Of course he doped.

But the new fans would have none of it - the criticism of Armstrong was just anti-American jealousy. And he had cancer you know (I guess getting cancer makes you a good person for some reason). Armstrong’s fall from grace was due to America’s peculiar brand of hero-worship more than anything else.

Ironically he was distained by cycling itself, not due to his drug use or ruthlessness but because he only cared about the Tour and trained for the one race, up until Armstrong came along teams and riders were expected to enter all the Grand Tours and one day classics, no one spent all year training and preparing for the one race, Armstrong didnt give a toss about the one and three day races, US Postal didnt even enter the Giro which incensed the European teams, its actually questionable if he would have won as many Tours if either he had ridden all year the way his rivals did or they had single mindedly trained to the one race the way Armstrong did.

The sports governing body never really tried to defend him as he had never ridden like a traditional rider