Israel declares war on Hamas

[Baron von Kriterium]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I don't know if I am privy to say so I left that out. Police and military were present, although military was not in view.

Not convinced. Sorry. For the military to be there is Aide to the Civil Power, which is a serious situation giving the military police powers. This would most certainly be on the nightly news.

What I can believe is military personnel moonlighting with a private security company. In fact, a commanding officer with a BC reserve regiment has done that for a Jewish center on the lower mainland.

[FlamesAddiction]

It seems to be something that was first reported on i24 news, which strikes me as Israel's Fox News, based on the segment I saw, then the Prime Ministers office took it was truth without confirmation. It is confirmed that infants were specifically targeted though. The images are out there with babies shot and hacked up. Not just caught in the crossfire. Blinken confirmed seeing those photos yesterday.

[flylock shox]

Lots of bad news out there today, on both sides of the pond. It really feels like things are going to deteriorate - not just on the ground in Gaza but elsewhere too. I think Israel's course of action over the next week could determine a lot of it, but there's such a feeling of tragic inevitability in the air. Just grim all around.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Lots of bad news out there today, on both sides of the pond. It really feels like things are going to deteriorate - not just on the ground in Gaza but elsewhere too. I think Israel's course of action over the next week could determine a lot of it, but there's such a feeling of tragic inevitability in the air. Just grim all around.

Well, I read that Israel is going to cut off the internet there tomorrow. If true, it will help prevent a lot of the videos that are currently making their way out there of the Palestinian civilians that are suffering from the assault from continuing to spread and will allow Israel and the west to control the messaging and what the world sees.

[8 Ball]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Well, I read that Israel is going to cut off the internet there tomorrow. If true, it will help prevent a lot of the videos that are currently making their way out there of the Palestinian civilians that are suffering from the assault from continuing to spread and will allow Israel and the west to control the messaging and what the world sees.

True. However, I think the most iconic video thus far was the young lady who appeared to be dead in the back of a vehicle being spat on by Hamas supporters. I don’t have a dog in the fight, but that was brutal.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Well the Palestinians see it as Israel attempting to roll back the clock 2000 years to a time when all of the West Bank and Gaza was Jewish land.

This maximalist attitude needs to end. From both sides.

Edit: to add to the original point. The brittish never once owned the land. The administered the land after the fall of the Ottomans. The ownership of the land was assumed to just continue as it previously was.

For a family that has been living on land since the beginning of recorded history, that is, for all intents and purposes, theirs. They may not have documentation of that because i doubt there's a central database for the Ayyubid Sultanate that anyone can check.

With that said, you might be surprised at the number of palestinians who do have documentation of land ownership that has been rendered useless. I have a photocopy of a land title from the Ottomans empire for a plot of land in Southern Israel. It's now a highway junction that is named after the now depopulated village. I don't have any delusions that that document will ever mean anything. But I do have it.

This is a complex issue that needs to be broken down further.

First, the very existence of Israel state within its 1967 borders. It's a fact, should be accepted, and nobody should try to roll it back. World peace is built on respect to existing countries and their current borders, no matter how unfair and random were the events that led to its creation. You can take pretty much any country and question why it exists at all, and why it exists wherever it is and not in some other place, and why their borders are what they are.

In most cases there are no good answers for those questions. Why Canada is in northern part of North America? Why Switzerland is in Alps? Why Sweden is in Scandinavia? Why Romania and Moldova are different countries? Why Trinidad and Tobago is one country? Why Lichtenstein is a separate country? Why Canada-USA border is where it is, and not 10 miles more to the south? For most part, it just so randomly happened.

Still, whatever countries exist and whatever borders they happen to have, they should be respected. Countries have the right to exist just because they happen to exist now. That's good enough reason. Trying to undermine it will lead to chaos.

The very different question is Israel's further attempts to grab land, particularly to colonize West Bank. This is illegal and should have no place in 21st century. I even would have gone as far, as to say that Israel should withdrew and let West Bank govern itself. But Israel did it with Gaza and look how it ended. As of now, I see colonization of West Bank as illegal and wrong, yet best possible solution for the time being. Maybe there's better solution that I fail to see.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Yes, blocking food and water into Gaza and telling hospitals that they have two hours to evacuate is definitely not retribution on civilians

Blocking food and water is the leverage to release hostages (who are also civilians and some are not even Jews). If you want water, just release hostages. If they are already dead, admit it.

On the sidenote, declaring the goal of destroying Israel and then complaining that Israel turned off electricity switch is kind of, well, childish. My four years old does something like this.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by 8 Ball

True. However, I think the most iconic video thus far was the young lady who appeared to be dead in the back of a vehicle being spat on by Hamas supporters. I don’t have a dog in the fight, but that was brutal.

Because it was On The Ground.

When the IDF takes to the streets, the up close and personal nature of the incursion will likely have the same impact.

Or, it would if they didn't cut the internet

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Blocking food and water is the leverage to release hostages (who are also civilians and some are not even Jews). If you want water, just release hostages. If they are already dead, admit it.

On the sidenote, declaring the goal of destroying Israel and then complaining that Israel turned off electricity switch is kind of, well, childish. My four years old does something like this.

Israel has captured thousands without charge. And there are several Israeli government officials who have said that Israel can build wherever it wants

[8 Ball]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Because it was On The Ground.

When the IDF takes to the streets, the up close and personal nature of the incursion will likely have the same impact.

Or, it would if they didn't cut the internet

No doubt.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Israel has captured thousands without charge. And there are several Israeli government officials who have said that Israel can build wherever it wants

That's because Hamas is not a regular army, does not wear uniforms (it's a war crime) and clear signs of what they are. Technically all Hamas members are civilians since Hamas is not an army, but rather a gang. Hamas is doing everything possible to be like a chameleon that pretends to be civilians when they need. That's a war crime.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

By the way, for people who think Gaza is about Hamas here is what some Israeli government officials were saying earlier this year,

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.time...ngagement/amp/


"A far-right minister in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government said that a law repealing legislation that ordered the evacuation of four West Bank settlements was a step on the way to re-occupying and resettling the Gaza Strip, a move that she acknowledged would cause “many casualties.”

Because leaving Gaza is now largely viewed as a mistake. It looked like right thing to do in theory, but it led to hell. Gazans would be better off if Israel gave them West Bank treatment. Instead, Gazans became pawns of Iran, and Iran is not even an Arabic country, but rather Persian. They declared the goal of destroying a neighboring country, attacked, lost the war and are about to get destroyed themselves.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Well, I read that Israel is going to cut off the internet there tomorrow. If true, it will help prevent a lot of the videos that are currently making their way out there of the Palestinian civilians that are suffering from the assault from continuing to spread and will allow Israel and the west to control the messaging and what the world sees.

I'm not sure how can internet function without electricity, which is already cut off. Regardless, even without any videos, there's no denying of Palestinians suffering. Life in Gaza is a nightmare now. Israel army said, point blank, that scenes from Gaza will be hard to stomach.The catastrophe that is unfolding is beyond comprehensive.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/scenes...s-to-evacuate/

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Are you in Calgary? That's nucking futs, dude. I had no idea.

I remember going to pick up my adopted kid from elementary school, he was 9 at the time and hanging out by the school playground so he could play with his friends, it's a school in Richmond so massive numbers of Asian kids of all races and creeds.

These 2 Hindu kids sit down with me because they knew I'm my kids 'new' father and its been the buzz of the school, after chatting with me for a while about being a foster dad and trying to get their head around that for some reason they decided to talk to me about the other kids, how you couldn't trust the Muslim kids that they were all thieves and dishonest and shouldn't be allowed in the school, these were 9 years olds, they had already been taught to hate Pakistani kids.

I took great pleasure in telling them that they should never judge anyone by their faith or colour and there were good and bad Muslims as well as Hindus, doubt it made a difference but you got to try, world is effed up dude.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

"They're just fighting Hamas"



NEW: 70 killed after Israeli strikes hit three convoys of evacuees trying to leave northern Gaza.

https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/171...5Es1_&ref_url=

Obviously it was hamas right? Most moral army in the world.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Obviously it was hamas right? Most moral army in the world.

Since Israel told civilians to go south and Hamas told civilians to stay up north, there's good chance that the news is either a fake altogether or the attack on fleeing refugees was carried out by Hamas. The news are being spread by Hamas, clearly with the intention to convince civilians to stay put. Israel would have never bomb a convoy of refugees fleeing south, which is exactly what they told them to do. Not because of morality, but because it's against their interest.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Pointman

That's because Hamas is not a regular army, does not wear uniforms (it's a war crime) and clear signs of what they are. Technically all Hamas members are civilians since Hamas is not an army, but rather a gang. Hamas is doing everything possible to be like a chameleon that pretends to be civilians when they need. That's a war crime.

Yup discussed it earlier, legally Hamas has no protections under the law, no protections in the international courts. They are enemy combatants can be detained indefinitely.



America with their enemy combatants were eventually challenged in court and it was found that in their case the combatants (terrorists) had a right to challenge their confinement, so the American's started the tribunal system.


But Hamas members are not members of a recognized military, they are not uniformed, and they deliberately attack civilians. Israel could make them disappear and it would be pretty much legal.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by Pointman

This is a complex issue that needs to be broken down further.

First, the very existence of Israel state within its 1967 borders. It's a fact, should be accepted, and nobody should try to roll it back. World peace is built on respect to existing countries and their current borders, no matter how unfair and random were the events that led to its creation. You can take pretty much any country and question why it exists at all, and why it exists wherever it is and not in some other place, and why their borders are what they are.

In most cases there are no good answers for those questions.

Thank you - those are some good points. I challenged your point about the origin of those Israeli borders earlier (British mandate and the partition plan) and whether or not they were established righteously, but their existence is a fact that has to be dealt with now, not 80 years ago.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Pointman

That's because Hamas is not a regular army, does not wear uniforms (it's a war crime) and clear signs of what they are. Technically all Hamas members are civilians since Hamas is not an army, but rather a gang. Hamas is doing everything possible to be like a chameleon that pretends to be civilians when they need. That's a war crime.

That's the thing. There are an estimated 30,000 Hamas trained militants in Gaza, plus many times that who would pick up a gun for Hamas if asked (many of them children). But they also have civilian lives. They are taxi drivers, firefighters, teachers, shop owners, tradesman, janitors, and everything else. They aren't holed up in some compound somewhere where Israel can strike them. They do their Hamas stuff, then bring the danger associated with it back to their families and neighbours, and each militant killed is a "civilian" casualty.

When the ground invasion is fully underway, the IDF is going to take a lot of losses as well. Even if the Israeli force is up to 10 times bigger, a guerilla force scattered around and appearing as civilians, will be tough to defeat. At the very least without internet, Hamas hopefully won't be able to stream snuff and torture videos to the families again.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by activeStick

CNN admits the beheading of 40 babies was fake news and is not confirmed now.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712415116363169884

Gee, I wonder if they’ve lied about anything else?