CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by getbak

It gets used more than 10 times a year, but other than the Stamps, it is more than acceptable for all of the other events that are held there during the year.

I've never used it other than as a spectator, so I can't comment on the quality of the athletic facilities, but the public facilities at McMahon are more than capable of handling the tiny crowds that the Dinos and Colts draw.

True but I'd heard that the city wants the fieldhouse at foothills athletic park, is this not where the Dinos and Colts would play in the future?

I guess what I'm saying is that they don't really factor into the picture IMO. Stamps and maybe MLS are all that matter. I wish I could say concerts but the NIMBYs have ruined that forever.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I will go ahead and assume that in the coming months (and hopefully sooner than that) we will hear about Plan B.

With that being said, I didn't think the number was outrageous. I believe the original proposal just covered the arena and field house, correct? Does this total include infrastructure costs and the environmental cleanup as well? If so, then I don't think the original proposal was that much of a lie, in fairness. If the infrastructure and cleanup are not included in this 1.83b number... well, somebody lend me a pitchfork.

That area does need to be cleaned up, and I really dislike the fact that it is likely to sit there spreading the contamination further, and remediation costs will only increase as the years pass. That whole interchange needs to be re-designed and rebuilt as well.

With that being said, I do wish that a new site is picked out. I actually hate the way they were essentially cutting-off the development around the river, and felt that it would become an area people could not enjoy the riverbank.

Suddenly, even firepark doesn't sound so horrible, and I hope it isn't there.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

What kind of garbage is this? Why should the city be engaged is some ridiculous back and forth with Flames ownership?

If I was going to pitch the city to offer cafeteria services to one of the facilities, I would have to put together more than a one page document which says a little more than "I like food and we are open from 7:00AM to 4:30PM". The city isn't going to engage me in dialogue, they are going to go with someone who looks like they've actually put some though, effort, costing and logistical analysis into it.

If you want public money, you better do your homework and present a realistic proposal. Provide more than a 1 pager that is quite frankly, disingenuous at best.

I think an arena project is a little more complex than a cafeteria. I think we can all agree the lack of substantial information with the CalgaryNext proposal shows it wasn't a realistic proposal. I think it has more to do with getting a dialogue going because things were dragging.

[dino7c]

that area will never be cleaned up...everyone loves the environment until it costs them money

[Flamenspiel]

It was a bad location full stop. You probably could not put it anywhere else more challenging or expensive then WV.

[jmac98]

I'm actually ok with where things are at right now. You can't change the past so while there's no reason we couldn't be sitting where we are now with the same information 5 years ago, the fact of the matter is Calgary Next got kicked off at the time it did and it is what it is.

To now see some information come back from that particular starting point in any capacity means we're heading down the right path. The review suggests West Village probably isn't going to unfold. A lot of eye rolling and frustration has resulted from fans and whomever else based on those findings, but at least there's answers provided and some clarity to suggest that a plan B is going to ultimately need to transpire and where.

It would stand to reason then that either Foothills and/or the Stampede (or just north) will be the location. The city suggests it's the best options and I believe the Flames organization is fine with this as well but maybe just wasn't their first option. So there's some common ground right there.

Now that option A has been all but nullified, the reality is we basically know the locations. Without 'x' amount of years on top of a finalized decision to clean the site, we will actually be getting the arena much sooner than if CalgaryNext came to fruition.

On a personal note, I didn't like the idea of it going to West Village. It seemed very crammed in, difficult to get to with no parking, etc. And for the times it's not in use for professional sports where the fieldhouse was to be open for alternate purpose, I can't imagine it being on anybody's "oh boy" list to have to go downtown for that. The Foothills is the ideal location for the fieldhouse as the university would benefit immensely from it and probably get the most use, and it's way more accessible all the same for anyone.

It's a long and frustrating process, but I kind of feel this was a good step and did bring the city and the Flames together on some answers.

We'll get there folks. Soldier through the ups and downs and don't get frustrated with one another for the views shared in the meantime. It's all just fodder. We'll come out the other side with a nice new arena eventually.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

True but I'd heard that the city wants the fieldhouse at foothills athletic park, is this not where the Dinos and Colts would play in the future?

I guess what I'm saying is that they don't really factor into the picture IMO. Stamps and maybe MLS are all that matter. I wish I could say concerts but the NIMBYs have ruined that forever.

As I understand it, the Foothills Fieldhouse in its current form would not be available for football use. If you read the report on the fieldhouse, one of the things it mentions is that football requires a ceiling height of at least 30m, but the Foothills Fieldhouse as proposed would only have a height of 20m. The current Foothills plan would not see McMahon demolished, so the Dinos and Colts would still be able to play there.


I guess I'm missing your point. You originally said that McMahon hosts more than 10 events a year and isn't viable for any of them. Really, the 10 Stamps games are the only events where McMahon in its current form struggles.

As it stands, the Dinos and Colts are the biggest secondary tenants at McMahon, and their crowds don't even fill up a fraction of half the stadium.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by jmac98

I'm actually ok with where things are at right now. You can't change the past so while there's no reason we couldn't be sitting where we are now with the same information 5 years ago, the fact of the matter is Calgary Next got kicked off at the time it did and it is what it is.

To now see some information come back from that particular starting point in any capacity means we're heading down the right path. The review suggests West Village probably isn't going to unfold. A lot of eye rolling and frustration has resulted from fans and whomever else based on those findings, but at least there's answers provided and some clarity to suggest that a plan B is going to ultimately need to transpire and where.

It would stand to reason then that either Foothills and/or the Stampede (or just north) will be the location. The city suggests it's the best options and I believe the Flames organization is fine with this as well but maybe just wasn't their first option. So there's some common ground right there.

Now that option A has been all but nullified, the reality is we basically know the locations. Without 'x' amount of years on top of a finalized decision to clean the site, we will actually be getting the arena much sooner than if CalgaryNext came to fruition.

On a personal note, I didn't like the idea of it going to West Village. It seemed very crammed in, difficult to get to with no parking, etc. And for the times it's not in use for professional sports where the fieldhouse was to be open for alternate purpose, I can't imagine it being on anybody's "oh boy" list to have to go downtown for that. The Foothills is the ideal location for the fieldhouse as the university would benefit immensely from it and probably get the most use, and it's way more accessible all the same for anyone.

It's a long and frustrating process, but I kind of feel this was a good step and did bring the city and the Flames together on some answers.

We'll get there folks. Soldier through the ups and downs and don't get frustrated with one another for the views shared in the meantime. It's all just fodder. We'll come out the other side with a nice new arena eventually.

The Flames could go and make an arena for themselves just like VAN, MTL & TOR did without any issues.

This mega project is about doing three projects in one, and that's where the consternation is arising from. Arena, Field House, & Stadium. Can it be done, and who will pay for 2/3 of the project?

I know people are sick and tired of hearing it, but it would be amazing if Calgary could build something similar to LA Live or Westgate in Glendale instead of just a plain Jane rink next door to the Dome.

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Sorry but "sound logic" and "childlike" are not mutually exclusive. It's Nenshi's way or the highway with him.

I think you're confused.

[Blarg]

All this Plan B talk has me imagining an arena looking like the morning after pill.
Aside from that, this whole mess has me really wish that nothing was announced until CSE and the city actually agreed upon a plan and ready to move forward together. This whole project being "10 years" in the making and having being stonewalled every 6 months by city is wasting everybody's time IMO.

[jmac98]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

The Flames could go and make an arena for themselves just like VAN, MTL & TOR did without any issues.

This mega project is about doing three projects in one, and that's where the consternation is arising from. Arena, Field House, & Stadium. Can it be done, and who will pay for 2/3 of the project?

I know people are sick and tired of hearing it, but it would be amazing if Calgary could build something similar to LA Live or Westgate in Glendale instead of just a plain Jane rink next door to the Dome.

I'm not sure calling it a plain Jane rink would be accurate, but I understand what you're saying.

If they still went with a multi-facility complex I'd be fine with that as well. My final comment you bolded was more meant to suggest we'll have our facilities eventually, although I used 'arena' so I apologize for that.

I actually don't have a dog in the fight regarding whether 2 facilities is better or worse than 1 giant hybrid. I honestly think I'd lean toward 2 separate facilities adjacent to their current predecessors. As I initially noted above, I don't see how a $500 million dollar arena can ever be associated with the term 'plain jane'. But to your point, a hybrid of it all is definitely unique and I can appreciate people favouring this method.

Thanks for replying in kind, I appreciate it.

[Aarongavey]

Calgarynext is no good. It was a no good idea with a no good plan and no good execution.

Simply speaking the level of no goodness in CalgaryNext is difficult to quantify.

[ThisIsAnOutrage]

1.8 billion in tax dollars? As of now, I am officially cheering for the creosote.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I always find it interesting that people will blindly accept the numbers from one side of an issue, after having not accepted any of the numbers from the other side.

I haven't taken a close look at any of them yet, but I will say this: there is no way a ticket tax would cost the city $84M.

Making some quick assumptions of $200M, a 20 year term, and an interest rate of 3.75% (which sounds fairly reasonable), the total interest charge for the life of the loan would be $84M.

However, the cash flow generated from the ticket tax makes the payments, not the city.

So the only thing I can conclude here is that the city has worked on the assumption that the ticket tax was a complete failure and the city was left with the entire bill.

I don't mind them stating that, on a worst case basis, the ticket tax loan could cost the city as much as $84M.

However, to say that the ticket tax will cost that is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Because the expected cost of the ticket tax loan to the city would be $0

Given this one (first) look at the numbers, I am less than confident about the authenticity of the rest of them.

Ok, so take that amount out. Is 1.2 billion better?

[Mister Yamoto]

I'm glad that CalgaryNext flopped. Looks like the Flames are victims of their own greed.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

King on 960 right now. Kind of reiterated what Francis wrote in that they are still committed to CalgaryNEXT. Kind of laughed about renovating McMahon saying they had already looked at that and it's simply not possible but if the city thinks it's possible he would love to see how they think it can be done. The fact the city thinks McMahon can be renovated is all you need to know that the city hasn't done all it's homework.

Corporation who wants a new stadium. The old one can't be renovated. Trust us guys, we looked into it.

Alot like the Detroit Tigers old stadium. A ton of architectural firms got together to show how Tigers stadium could be renovated to meet the needs of the current era for less than the cost of a new stadium... crickets.

[troutman]

Ken King comments on CalgaryNEXT

Ken King, the president and CEO of the Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation, talks about the next steps for CalgaryNEXT project after a city report determined that the project would be far more expensive than originally proposed.

http://www.cbc.ca/eyeopener/episode/...n-calgarynext/

[Cube Inmate]

KK on the eyeopener mentioned 3 assumptions underlying viability of his project:

1) Contamination would be cleaned up regardless
2) WV will be developed regardless
3) A fieldhouse will be built regardless

Said if any of those 3 was not true, then the project couldn't go. However, the unstated assumptions are, in addition to the 3 above:

4) WV development focused on a megaplex is as good or better than the alternatives for the space, and
5) We have and would choose to spend the money on 1-3 above on a timeline that meets the Flames' desires.

I'm fine with 1-3. I don't agree with 4 & 5.

[Cappy]

I don't blame the Flames or Ken King for leaving out some costs. I don't think they hid them but merely omitted, which is fine when you are selling something. We have all been sold something where various externalities are left out due to their unknown or underdeveloped cost.

I also don't blame the City for including many of those externalities in their report on a "worst case" basis. As a tax payer, I don't want to be sold a bill of goods and then be stuck with massive cost overruns.

Is the City high? probably, but we all knew the true cost was well above the 900 million that was originally proposed.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I don't blame the Flames or Ken King for leaving out some costs. I don't think they hid them but merely omitted, which is fine when you are selling something. We have all been sold something where various externalities are left out due to their unknown or underdeveloped cost.

I also don't blame the City for including many of those externalities in their report on a "worst case" basis. As a tax payer, I don't want to be sold a bill of goods and then be stuck with massive cost overruns.

Is the City high? probably, but we all knew the true cost was well above the 900 million that was originally proposed.

I've never seen an arena project announcement or plan that included interest on the loans and infrastructure upgrades included in the totals, the city making it sound like the Flames were hiding things is as ridiculous as most of the outrage in this thread. But anyone who has paid any attention knew that Nenshi and his lackeys would spin it this way.