CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So you are saying a glitzy PowerPoint presentation would have been all took to sell the project? At the end of the day wether the renders were hand sketched or produced by Pixar it has zero relevance on the project funding and feasability. That argument is starting to get really old and tired.

But it's not at all. When you want hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer money, you'd better blow people away and leave them wanting the project. Instead most of us pondered whether we could do better with an hour or so and MS Paint. Not saying the presentation alone would guarantee public support, but the piece of crap they threw out there guaranteed most people would be underwhelmed and less likely to want money going to what appears to be an amateur hour project.

[polak]

nvm

[cDnStealth]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So you are saying a glitzy PowerPoint presentation would have been all took to sell the project? At the end of the day wether the renders were hand sketched or produced by Pixar it has zero relevance on the project funding and feasability. That argument is starting to get really old and tired.

Yes that is exactly what I am saying. Obviously a render isn't the only thing you need but when you're asking for tax payers to foot the bill you had better come armed with a professional presentation. You need to get people excited about the project and the easiest way to do that is to show them what it will look like.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Torture

Pretty hypocritical for Ken King to accuse the city of not doing their homework. City puts out a detailed report of the costs and their analysis of the project, Ken King gives a Powerpoint and a crappy render.

KK is a lot of things, but I listened to the interview and didn't get the impression he was hypocritical in accusing the City of not doing its homework. He acknowledged there was a lot of work done in a short period of time to pull together the 173 page report.

The frustration for me with this exercise is that they are still comparing apples and oranges. The Flames proposal specifically excluded remediation cost (understandable, if they were unknown at the time), financing expenses (should be included, at least a working model of assumptions), and road work infrastructure (should be included). Put it on the table to test assumptions, and then fight over who pays.
The one thing that I agree with in the interview, is that the indictment of the plan is basically an indictment of WV. If that is the case, fine, scrap it for the arena/stadium plan. However, the work does need to get done, and it will be paid by the City, presumably. Those problems aren't going away, and I for one would hope they can tackle them sooner rather than later.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So you are saying a glitzy PowerPoint presentation would have been all took to sell the project? At the end of the day wether the renders were hand sketched or produced by Pixar it has zero relevance on the project funding and feasability. That argument is starting to get really old and tired.

How about a report like the city's? They could have preempted the city's "overly biased" report if they did one themselves and could set the narrative.

How about giving us specifics like:
- Who fronts the ticket tax, how much the ticket tax should be per ticket
- How much CRL is supposed to generate (and what assumptions were used)
- Who owns the structure and is responsible for the upgrades and why that's a good idea. Maybe the Flames have expertise in managing the place?
- How much you expect the land to cost and the value of the land
- What infrastructure you were planning to upgrade and install
- Be proactive and do the environmental assessment so that the city has an idea of the creosote (regardless of who's responsibility it is in the end)
- What you want from the city and justifications as to why it's a good idea without using the phrase "world-class". Provide examples from other cities and success stories of public-private partnerships for arenas

The fact of the matter is if all you have is renders and a powerpoint, that's all we have to judge you on, and it was garbage. If it was an actual proposal, noone would have a leg to stand on with regards to the quality of the renders, since they would be irrelevant.

[CliffFletcher]

With the timeline now proving to be unfeasible, the question I come back to is why is this happening now, and not 5-6 years ago? Why did the Flames drag their feet for so long on planning a new stadium? By the time a replacement is built, the Saddledome will be the oldest arena in the league by a decade.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

With the timeline now proving to be unfeasible, the question I come back to is why is this happening now, and not 5-6 years ago? Why did the Flames drag their feet for so long on planning a new stadium? By the time a replacement is built, the Saddledome will be the oldest arena in the league by a decade.

Can't argue with that, but can't really change that fact either. I think the excuse is that the ownership of the Stamps changed focus, but either way, they should be further along.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

By the time a replacement is built, the Saddledome will be the oldest arena in the league by a decade.

Rexall Place opened in the mid 70's. Ten years before the Saddledome and in my opinion that building probably was stretched to its limits time-wise. It's silly that people are so worried about this age factor when it really means little to the average fan aside from some moderate inconveniences like poor washrooms and access to seats etc. The on-ice product and sight lines are certainly not affected in any way by continuing to use the dome - which is the most important thing.

This building can surely last another 5-7 years while the city works for a deal that is at least somewhat beneficial to the taxpayers and rest of the province. The fact that this project is already estimated at nearly double the initial pitch goes to show how much room for error has been built into this entire fiasco.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

Yes that is exactly what I am saying. Obviously a render isn't the only thing you need but when you're asking for tax payers to foot the bill you had better come armed with a professional presentation. You need to get people excited about the project and the easiest way to do that is to show them what it will look like.

Does it really matter how excited you are for the project? Like I said it could have been done by Pixar and Nenshi would have still crapped all over it. We aren't the people that need to be won over. The fact is that taxpayers really have little say in how our money is spent.

[Robbob]

I think some people are over reacting a bit. I think a big part of this is just getting a dialogue going. CalgaryNext was the kickoff point and now they go back and forth.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

With the timeline now proving to be unfeasible, the question I come back to is why is this happening now, and not 5-6 years ago? Why did the Flames drag their feet for so long on planning a new stadium? By the time a replacement is built, the Saddledome will be the oldest arena in the league by a decade.

Why is the timeline not feasible? It was never going to be done until next decade anyway. This isn't a race to get new facilities to be built. It's a process and the Flames knew that a large scale project such as CalgaryNEXT wasn't going to happen overnight.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I think some people are over reacting a bit. I think a big part of this is just getting a dialogue going. CalgaryNext was the kickoff point and now they go back and forth.

Which was exactly what the city was trying to accomplish with some of the sensationalism in their report knowing that people would overreact. All it took was just a couple of bolded lines in a report and people are concluding CalgaryNEXT is dead. Mission accomplished from their side for sure.

[Johnny Rotten]

I thought that the reason the Flames took so long to announce arena plans was because they and the city were getting "their ducks in a row" and that when an announcement was made, it would be a joint message (Flames and city) describing a when and where the arena would be built.

Not what is going on now.

At least, after listening to him on the radio, King seems to be taking the high road on the situation.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

I thought that the reason the Flames took so long to announce arena plans was because they and the city were getting "their ducks in a row" and that when an announcement was made, it would be a joint message (Flames and city) describing a when and where the arena would be built.

Not what is going on now.

At least, after listening to him on the radio, King seems to be taking the high road on the situation.

I think that is maybe why it took so long to announce anything. Maybe the behind the scenes route wasn't working or moving way to slow for their liking. Enter CalgaryNext to get it out and into the open to make it a talking point. Regardless if the proposal sucks, it still is getting press. Now with this report they kicked the can a little farther down the road.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

At least, after listening to him on the radio, King seems to be taking the high road on the situation.

That's why I don't understand all the Ken King hate. He takes the high road and he's a clueless buffoon while our mayor stomps his feet angrily like a child and wouldn't know a high road if he was standing on it and he's the greatest mayor in the world.

[Freeway]

The mayor ran on modernizing the transportation infrastructure, and capital projects that involve a lot of public skin in the game for questionable public benefit go against that agenda.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That's why I don't understand all the Ken King hate. He takes the high road and he's a clueless buffoon while our mayor stomps his feet angrily like a child and wouldn't know a high road if he was standing on it and he's the greatest mayor in the world.

Because his "high road" is based on fluff and partial info. It's lipstick on a pig. Amateur politics.

Nenshi is certainly acting more childlike, but his point is based on substance and sound logic.

The Ken King hate is based on ignoring demeanor and studying the underlying substance. Substance trumps style for me.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I think some people are over reacting a bit. I think a big part of this is just getting a dialogue going. CalgaryNext was the kickoff point and now they go back and forth.

What kind of garbage is this? Why should the city be engaged is some ridiculous back and forth with Flames ownership?

If I was going to pitch the city to offer cafeteria services to one of the facilities, I would have to put together more than a one page document which says a little more than "I like food and we are open from 7:00AM to 4:30PM". The city isn't going to engage me in dialogue, they are going to go with someone who looks like they've actually put some though, effort, costing and logistical analysis into it.

If you want public money, you better do your homework and present a realistic proposal. Provide more than a 1 pager that is quite frankly, disingenuous at best.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Because his "high road" is based on fluff and partial info. It's lipstick on a pig. Amateur politics.

Nenshi is certainly acting more childlike, but his point is based on substance and sound logic.

The Ken King hate is based on ignoring demeanor and studying the underlying substance. Substance trumps style for me.

Sorry but "sound logic" and "childlike" are mutually exclusive. It's Nenshi's way or the highway with him.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

This is such a tired argument. It gets used more than 10 times a year. Fact of the matter is that in its current form, McMahon is not viable for anything. It is a total dump.

It gets used more than 10 times a year, but other than the Stamps, it is more than acceptable for all of the other events that are held there during the year.

I've never used it other than as a spectator, so I can't comment on the quality of the athletic facilities, but the public facilities at McMahon are more than capable of handling the tiny crowds that the Dinos and Colts draw.