Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Cappy]

A centrist party that wasn't the NDP or tied to it federally was already tried. It was called the Alberta Party. It claimed a few seats until the AB NDP essentially stole their centrist platform and swept to power.

Perhaps the NDP name has more cache than expected?

I assume the voters who say they won't vote for the NDP because of their name and tie to the Federal party (1) would never vote for NDP; and (2) are dimwits

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...2022-1.6485914

They want to separate themselves from the federal Liberals. BC is red-tape heaven, and they will be named something new by the end of the year. It's not that hard, and it will probably mean a bigger swing in Alberta than it would in BC, where left-wing federal parties are more well loved.

The BC libs are the right-wing party, so they definitely wanted to differentiate themselves from the federal liberals.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...2022-1.6485914

They want to separate themselves from the federal Liberals. BC is red-tape heaven, and they will be named something new by the end of the year. It's not that hard, and it will probably mean a bigger swing in Alberta than it would in BC, where left-wing federal parties are more well loved.

Somewhat different as the BC Liberals are not affiliated with the federal Liberals, but the AB NDP are associated with the fed NDP. One is a name change, the other is a declaration of independence (although I suppose perhaps the AB NDP could change their name without de-affiliating?)

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by Izzle

Conservative concentrators would rather talk about the Federal liberals in the other thread rather than come here.

I don't know about anyone else's opinion, but there's a reason no conservatives are posting in this thread anymore.

The amount of name-calling is to the point of embarrassing.

And if that's the base level, what's the chances of having any semblance of a reasonable, rational argument anymore.

Because heaven forbid someone have a different opinion....no...they must all be stupid or dimwits or rural or hicks or insert about 20 other iterations that I've read so far.

A lot of posters here need to work on their maturity.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by simmer2

I don't know about anyone else's opinion, but there's a reason no conservatives are posting in this thread anymore.

The amount of name-calling is to the point of embarrassing.

And if that's the base level, what's the chances of having any semblance of a reasonable, rational argument anymore.

Because heaven forbid someone have a different opinion....no...they must all be stupid or dimwits or rural or hicks or insert about 20 other iterations that I've read so far.

A lot of posters here need to work on their maturity.

Yeah the federal politics thread is much more tame /s

Both sides of the political spectrum tend to ignore Ls

I see stickman came into the fold rather quickly after PP was elected. I havent seen too many people defending Trudeau in there lately.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by simmer2

I don't know about anyone else's opinion, but there's a reason no conservatives are posting in this thread anymore.

The amount of name-calling is to the point of embarrassing.

And if that's the base level, what's the chances of having any semblance of a reasonable, rational argument anymore.

Because heaven forbid someone have a different opinion....no...they must all be stupid or dimwits or rural or hicks or insert about 20 other iterations that I've read so far.

A lot of posters here need to work on their maturity.

I’m gonna go ahead and tell the folks who are using being called names as an excuse for why they won’t post or defend their posts/opinions to cry me a river.

I’ve posted on this board for a long time and am generally pretty respectful with most people I disagree with but before people realized calling me names wasn’t going to be an effective deterrent to get me to stop posting I was called just about every name under the sun on this forum. Some still chime in with the odd drive by, but why should their immaturity affect what I say or do?

I think the problem for most of the people who are using that excuse isn’t that people are calling them names, it’s that those posters are looking for an echo chamber because they can’t defend their opinions that have been spoon fed to them by politicians and various media outlets who are exploiting their inability to think critically.

If someone isn’t prepared to defend what they post without complaining when someone questions it, should they really be posting it?

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I’m gonna go ahead and tell the folks who are using being called names as an excuse for why they won’t post or defend their posts/opinions to cry me a river.

So it's ok to call people names and demean their opinion, and they just need to get over it. Got it.

I’ve posted on this board for a long time and am generally pretty respectful with most people I disagree with but before people realized calling me names wasn’t going to be an effective deterrent to get me to stop posting I was called just about every name under the sun on this forum. Some still chime in with the odd drive by, but why should their immaturity affect what I say or do?

I think the problem for most of the people who are using that excuse isn’t that people are calling them names, it’s that those posters are looking for an echo chamber because they can’t defend their opinions that have been spoon fed to them by politicians and various media outlets who are exploiting their inability to think critically.

You're making an assumption, which may or may not be valid. I'd argue that a lot of what has been posted in the last number of pages is exactly that, an echo chamber to yell loudly with others who agree with them.

And it doesn't exactly make it a welcoming place to have any meaningful discussion at all.

It sucks you had people call you names. That's not OK. But we can all do better by at least trying to set an example.

If someone isn’t prepared to defend what they post without complaining when someone questions it, should they really be posting it?

We unfortunately can't stop drive-bys.

But ideally each of us can maybe change our behaviour a bit in what we post so we can try to maybe learn about why the other side thinks about why they do.

Then again, it's the internet so maybe I have way too lofty of expectations and people really are just looking for a place to yell loudly more or less anonymously.

I know you and I disagree on our political views. But it doesn't mean we shouldnt try to engage in some sort of dialogue that doesn't divolve into name calling and yelling.

Anyways, I think I'm just rambling now so I'll stop.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by simmer2

So it's ok to call people names and demean their opinion, and they just need to get over it. Got it.



You're making an assumption, which may or may not be valid. I'd argue that a lot of what has been posted in the last number of pages is exactly that, an echo chamber to yell loudly with others who agree with them.

And it doesn't exactly make it a welcoming place to have any meaningful discussion at all.

It sucks you had people call you names. That's not OK. But we can all do better by at least trying to set an example.



We unfortunately can't stop drive-bys.

But ideally each of us can maybe change our behaviour a bit in what we post so we can try to maybe learn about why the other side thinks about why they do.

Then again, it's the internet so maybe I have way too lofty of expectations and people really are just looking for a place to yell loudly more or less anonymously.

I know you and I disagree on our political views. But it doesn't mean we shouldnt try to engage in some sort of dialogue that doesn't divolve into name calling and yelling.

Anyways, I think I'm just rambling now so I'll stop.

Why don't you try to be the change you want to see, instead of playing a pre-emptive victim card?

Tell us why you support ___ party and what scares you about ___party as an alternative?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I've interacted with primarily 'rural' Albertans over the last few months, and there really isn't a UCP stronghold, there is a ingrained distaste for the letters NDP. If they were exactly the same in every way, but renamed Bob's Super Awesome Party That Also Likes Golf Sometimes, the UCP would be dead in the water.

As a rural Albertan I can tell you there is a strong dislike for the NDP, espcially among farmers. Not sure that will change anytime soon.
.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by simmer2

So it's ok to call people names and demean their opinion, and they just need to get over it. Got it.

Not what I said at all.

You're making an assumption, which may or may not be valid.

Hence why I prefaced the statement with “I think”

I'd argue that a lot of what has been posted in the last number of pages is exactly that, an echo chamber to yell loudly with others who agree with them.

It’s only an echo chamber if people allow it to be one.

And it doesn't exactly make it a welcoming place to have any meaningful discussion at all.

As another poster stated, be the change you want to see.

It sucks you had people call you names. That's not OK. But we can all do better by at least trying to set an example.

Actually I found it quite comical to see what I assumed were grown adults behaving in such a manner.

We unfortunately can't stop drive-bys.

But ideally each of us can maybe change our behaviour a bit in what we post so we can try to maybe learn about why the other side thinks about why they do.

Then again, it's the internet so maybe I have way too lofty of expectations and people really are just looking for a place to yell loudly more or less anonymously.

I know you and I disagree on our political views. But it doesn't mean we shouldnt try to engage in some sort of dialogue that doesn't divolve into name calling and yelling.

I completely agree.

Anyways, I think I'm just rambling now so I'll stop.

So long as the rambles stay respectful, I say ramble on.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by simmer2

I don't know about anyone else's opinion, but there's a reason no conservatives are posting in this thread anymore.

The amount of name-calling is to the point of embarrassing.

And if that's the base level, what's the chances of having any semblance of a reasonable, rational argument anymore.

Because heaven forbid someone have a different opinion....no...they must all be stupid or dimwits or rural or hicks or insert about 20 other iterations that I've read so far.

A lot of posters here need to work on their maturity.

You don’t think it’s because they can’t defend the actions of Kenny or the current policies of Smith?

I mean if someone wants to have a debate around the merits of Smiths Alberta refusal to enforce federal law I’m sure there would be respectful discussion around it.

Also looking at the top 10 it’s 1/10 are conservative but expanded to the top 20 it’s about 25%. Put the NDP back in power to give people something to attack rather than defend and the ratio flips.

[PepsiFree]

I’m not sure coming in saying “a lot of people here have a maturity issue” is the fastest route to a more respectful discourse, but I’m fascinated to see what follows.

I think the answer is pretty simple. This thread is just like the Canadian Politics Thread. Plenty of Conservative posters post there. Next most is probably NDP or independent, very few Liberal supports. Why the difference between that thread and this one? The ruling government. Especially the topics in both threads are almost always “here’s what these ####ers did now” then why would you post there if you were a partisan supporter.

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by simmer2

We unfortunately can't stop drive-bys.

But ideally each of us can maybe change our behaviour a bit in what we post so we can try to maybe learn about why the other side thinks about why they do.

Then again, it's the internet so maybe I have way too lofty of expectations and people really are just looking for a place to yell loudly more or less anonymously.

Accusing just the left-leaning posters of doing negative behavior seems shortsighted. I mean, people of all political affiliations have their issues.

I made this account a long time ago but I really just started posting in the last 12 months or so. In that time I've engaged a few posters (who seem to be more conservative-minded) in what I thought was respectful conversation. More often than not, I find they are not interested in conversation. Rather, they seem to come into these political threads and drop some tweet, news story, etc. that supports a view they hold and then they run off with no responses. I've tried to interact with a few and have almost never received a response back. I don't understand the point of posting a tweet or news story and then not giving your thoughts/interpretations or being open to a discussion.

I get the feeling that a lot of posters come to these political threads not looking for conversation but instead to look for support for their own ideas/feelings, and when its not reciprocated they get upset. As such, they claim bias or mistreatment among other posters. Doesn't make for a positive experience. I find the best conversations come when someone is challenging my already held beliefs, which then makes me question myself and my understanding of the world. It seems others don't like that would rather just have their already held beliefs confirmed. What's the fun in that?

To be clear, I've never made my own political preferences known on this forum, but I wouldn't mind saying I find aspects of all parties/leaders that I can agree with as well as disagree with. I've considered myself left-leaning at points in my life and right-leaning at other points (also depends on the issues of the day). All depends on the nature of the party, my local candidate and the leader of the party at the time. I will admit, I struggle to see eye-to-eye with people who are staunchly supportive of one party regardless of the leader, platform, etc.

[b1crunch]

Another issue I've encountered is people who hold views that are so out there, its nearly impossible to have a meaningful conversation. For example, someone who thinks Trudeau outright controls all of the media in Canada. Sometimes I find people hold these conspiracy-theory laden views, and I'm honestly hard-pressed to find some kind of meaningful middle ground from which to discuss.

I also found this problem during the convoys this past year. Some people who supported the convoys were basically ignoring facts, and claiming "fake news" or "woke media" or whatever. How do you have a conversation with someone when they seem to be operating in a different reality? It doesn't matter what you say to these people, they get defensive and argumentative, from my experience.

Then when people call their ideas for what they are, they claim people are piling on them or name-calling or whatever.

This is what I've witnessed in the last 12 months on CP.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Cappy

A centrist party that wasn't the NDP or tied to it federally was already tried. It was called the Alberta Party. It claimed a few seats until the AB NDP essentially stole their centrist platform and swept to power.

Perhaps the NDP name has more cache than expected?

I assume the voters who say they won't vote for the NDP because of their name and tie to the Federal party (1) would never vote for NDP; and (2) are dimwits

I don't think the provincial NDP won because of a deep attraction of Albertans to the NDP brand, they won because the cons kept stabbing themselves in the eyeball and they were the only party that appeared to have an adult leadership choice. If there was an NDP groundswell you'd see them making progress at the Federal level as well.

As someone who would like Alberta provincial politics to be competitive to keep leaders honest (or at least less egregiously dishonest) I think its too bad they don't change the name.

As for your set of reasons. I agree the name of the party is a stupid reason to vote/not vote for someone. But changing the name to pander to dimwitted voters is absolutely the right choice.

If you exclude dimwits from voting for you it will be very difficult to get elected, because if dimwits were a party they'd have a plurality at minimum.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by simmer2

I don't know about anyone else's opinion, but there's a reason no conservatives are posting in this thread anymore.

The amount of name-calling is to the point of embarrassing.

And if that's the base level, what's the chances of having any semblance of a reasonable, rational argument anymore.

Because heaven forbid someone have a different opinion....no...they must all be stupid or dimwits or rural or hicks or insert about 20 other iterations that I've read so far.

A lot of posters here need to work on their maturity.

I thought the reason is that it's all but impossible to defend Kenney and the UCP. And to be honest, in real life if I meet a vocal UCP supporter, I think less of that person. After all they've done, and from what the leadership candidates want to do, how on earth can one justify supporting them?

The are only two types of people I can understand supporting the UCP at this point.
The right wing christians, and the greedy well off people, especially in oil & gas, that don't give a crap about anything but their money.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

It’s only an echo chamber if people allow it to be one.

Most people are deterred from posting by personal attacks. Which is why most moderated forums don’t allow them.

Let’s not pretend the culture or moderation of these threads lend themselves to respectful discourse. They’ve pretty much become a playground for a small group of highly-active posters to indulge in partisan hatred, drive-byes, and dog-piling. You can be as belligerent and ugly as you like (ie saying anyone who votes for the Conservatives deserves to have their faces smashed in) so long as you choose a popular target for your malice. And I guarantee many of the most antagonistic posters here would never employ their schtick on a forum where their opinions were in the minority and they would be the ones getting dogpiled.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And I guarantee many of the most antagonistic posters here would never employ their schtick on a forum where their opinions were in the minority and they would be the ones getting dogpiled.

You would be wrong.

You don't bend your posting to the forum, you bend the forum to your posting.

This is the way.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by b1crunch

Accusing just the left-leaning posters of doing negative behavior seems shortsighted. I mean, people of all political affiliations have their issues.

I made this account a long time ago but I really just started posting in the last 12 months or so. In that time I've engaged a few posters (who seem to be more conservative-minded) in what I thought was respectful conversation. More often than not, I find they are not interested in conversation. Rather, they seem to come into these political threads and drop some tweet, news story, etc. that supports a view they hold and then they run off with no responses. I've tried to interact with a few and have almost never received a response back. I don't understand the point of posting a tweet or news story and then not giving your thoughts/interpretations or being open to a discussion.

I get the feeling that a lot of posters come to these political threads not looking for conversation but instead to look for support for their own ideas/feelings, and when its not reciprocated they get upset. As such, they claim bias or mistreatment among other posters. Doesn't make for a positive experience. I find the best conversations come when someone is challenging my already held beliefs, which then makes me question myself and my understanding of the world. It seems others don't like that would rather just have their already held beliefs confirmed. What's the fun in that?

To be clear, I've never made my own political preferences known on this forum, but I wouldn't mind saying I find aspects of all parties/leaders that I can agree with as well as disagree with. I've considered myself left-leaning at points in my life and right-leaning at other points (also depends on the issues of the day). All depends on the nature of the party, my local candidate and the leader of the party at the time. I will admit, I struggle to see eye-to-eye with people who are staunchly supportive of one party regardless of the leader, platform, etc.

I agree. Social media helped people align themselves within echo chambers and then also made the more opinionated or biggest wind-bags the kings of the space. Even the 'open-minded' people end up at the same online watering holes as the other 'open-minded' people.

Place like this - where the bias is obviously around the hockey team you support - are relatively rare these days. And having people disagree with you gets misconstrued as personal attacks because people are used to speaking online to groups where everyone agrees on the general issue.

[TheIronMaiden]

This is true, but there are also instances where I think the person I agree with posts like a total wanker.