Israel declares war on Hamas

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Sliver

WTF? You would be scared to wear a yalmake or pro-Israel shirt in fricken Calgary? That's wild. I wouldn't think anything of it. I truly don't believe there is an underlying anti-Semitic problem here that would make wearing either of those things unsafe.

Either I'm naive or you're off your rocker.

I’ve been harassed. And that was a few months ago.

I would definitely be on guard today.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I’ve been harassed. And that was a few months ago. Let’s leave it at that.

I'm sorry to hear that.

That shouldn't happen to anyone.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Tell you what dude. Let’s meet up later today. I will wear my Stand with Israel shirt or jersey from the Israeli National Hockey team and we will hit some bars across the City.

Would you feel safe?

Edit: or just a yulmake. Let’s do it.

I've been "living Jewish" in Calgary for 40 years man, the worst I've gotten was beat up a couple times for it in junior high, after I left the CJA.

That said, walking around advertising you support apartheid probably won't make you many friends. I doubt a yarmulke is making any heads turn though (unless it's one of those sick ones that look like a UFO with puffy paint and glitter that glow in the dark).

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I see some comments online and in the media that the Palestinians elected Hamas so are at least partly to blame for their predicament. Let's run with that logic for a minute. After the unprovoked Iraq War started, the American re-elected Bush. So if someone had the power to, would be it then have been ok to shutdown water, electricity, and food to the American population?

Americans who voted for Bush are 100% partially responsible for the things Bush did. Especially, as they re-elected him after he'd invaded Iraq. Decision making power always comes with consequences.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

WTF? You would be scared to wear a yalmake or pro-Israel shirt in fricken Calgary? That's wild. I wouldn't think anything of it. I truly don't believe there is an underlying anti-Semitic problem here that would make wearing either of those things unsafe.

Either I'm naive or you're off your rocker.

You wouldn’t think Sydney, Australia would be particularly anti-semitic. But protesters were chanting “gas the Jews” at a rally a few days ago.

https://www.reuters.com/world/police...ti-2023-10-10/

France and Germany have cancelled pro-Palestinian rallies out of fears of violence and fuelling anti-semitism.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67088547

In Calgary, police and schools have increased security.

https://globalnews.ca/news/10020740/...es-of-worship/


It just takes a handful of nutbars to kick something off.

[WCW Nitro]

For anyone who still thinks Israel will not target civilians

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israe...b03ea0c004e2a8


As Israel engages in a massive air campaign ahead of an anticipated full-scale ground invasion of the Gaza Strip, Israeli President Isaac Herzog said on Friday that all citizens of Gaza are responsible for the attack Hamas perpetrated in Israel last weekend that left over 1,200 people dead.

“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

For anyone who still thinks Israel will not target civilians

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israe...b03ea0c004e2a8


As Israel engages in a massive air campaign ahead of an anticipated full-scale ground invasion of the Gaza Strip, Israeli President Isaac Herzog said on Friday that all citizens of Gaza are responsible for the attack Hamas perpetrated in Israel last weekend that left over 1,200 people dead.

“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”

I don't think anyone truly believes that Israel doesn't and won't target civilians except for the extreme.

[PsYcNeT]

Post 9/11 speedrun

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712936910795002281

We literally learned nothing.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I don't think anyone truly believes that Israel doesn't and won't target civilians except for the extreme.

I don't think they're "targeting" them. I think they are targeting possible Hamas hideouts and don't particularly care of civilians are there.


Which I guess is six of one and a half dozen of the other.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

For anyone who still thinks Israel will not target civilians

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israe...b03ea0c004e2a8


As Israel engages in a massive air campaign ahead of an anticipated full-scale ground invasion of the Gaza Strip, Israeli President Isaac Herzog said on Friday that all citizens of Gaza are responsible for the attack Hamas perpetrated in Israel last weekend that left over 1,200 people dead.

“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”

To be fair, he stated although he holds all the Gazans responsible for electing and keeping Hamas in power, he wasn't targetting them either:

When a reporter asked Herzog to clarify whether he meant to say that since Gazans did not remove Hamas from power “that makes them, by implication, legitimate targets,” the Israeli president claimed, “No, I didn’t say that.”

But he then stated: “When you have a missile in your goddamn kitchen and you want to shoot it at me, am I allowed to defend myself?”

So basically, he's stating if there's a weapon, I'll go after it, even if it's in a civilian's home, but he's not targeting any civilians on their own.

I don't know why you keep repeated the same phrase over and over. It's pretty clear what Israel is doing. They are bombing Hamas in Gaza, and have acknowledged that non-combatants will get hit in the cross-fire.

There's absolutely no reason for them to randomly target civilians here and there. From a practical point of view, that's a huge waste of resources. From a tactical point of view, the bombings on the Hamas infrastructure are going to be terrifying in themselves, so there's no extra psychological goal from hitting civilians, as a primary target, randomly.

There's plenty of room to argue about what other precautions Israel should be taking that would likely better suit your point.

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Spurs

What else do you really think will happen in a city like Calgary?

Do you live under a rock?

I can tell you for a fact that there are kids in schools directing racial slurs at others and using racialized language and messaging to discriminate against and attack Jewish people this week. Do you think kids just come up with this stuff on their own? This is what they are exposed to at home and online.

To say that there is no racialized violence, or threat of violence, in Calgary is so boneheaded and shows a complete disconnect from reality.

[edited] - probably can't say that

Calgary is just as gross as every other place on earth, we're not special.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

Americans who voted for Bush are 100% partially responsible for the things Bush did. Especially, as they re-elected him after he'd invaded Iraq. Decision making power always comes with consequences.

You didn't answer the question

[Manhattanboy]

Interesting comments from Efraim Halevy, the former chief of Mossad in the Times:

https://apple.news/AYZqW3N0CQAWwqFPd5yyQpA

[activeStick]

Unbelievable

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712886892885061811

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

To be fair, he stated although he holds all the Gazans responsible for electing and keeping Hamas in power, he wasn't targetting them either:



So basically, he's stating if there's a weapon, I'll go after it, even if it's in a civilian's home, but he's not targeting any civilians on their own.

I don't know why you keep repeated the same phrase over and over. It's pretty clear what Israel is doing. They are bombing Hamas in Gaza, and have acknowledged that non-combatants will get hit in the cross-fire.

There's absolutely no reason for them to randomly target civilians here and there. From a practical point of view, that's a huge waste of resources. From a tactical point of view, the bombings on the Hamas infrastructure are going to be terrifying in themselves, so there's no extra psychological goal from hitting civilians, as a primary target, randomly.

There's plenty of room to argue about what other precautions Israel should be taking that would likely better suit your point.

You think anyone is actually going to come out and say yes we will target civilians? If this is what is what is being said in public, what do you think is being said in private? When you have confirmed that you think everyone is responsible, you will intentionally kill civilians. What do you think the cutting off of food and water is about? They absolutely want to see civilians suffer.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

You didn't answer the question

I'm not even sure what you're question was? If Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath party took over the world and then cut America's power off, would that be okay?

Well, I wouldn't support anyone taking over the world, especially not some crazed nationalist party that was parading around Saddam Hussein's image.

Are you just talking about the Iraqi people taking over the world and cutting off America's power? I probably wouldn't support that either.

Does America deserve retribution? That's a loaded question, and you really have to look at the good and the bad that America accomplishes and what they, as a democratic (although admittedly imperfect democratic) superpower has to deal with. Overall, I think you're analogy is poor.

However, if one country elected a bunch of racist fascists for their government, and then those racist fascists committed an act of genocide on their neighbours, I would be pretty understanding if they restricted resources to that neighbour in a following military intervention. Even it meant that civilians would suffer. It's a matter of degree, but there is no way to wage a war without civilians suffering. It's particularly difficult when the opponent refuses to follow basic rules of war like wearing uniforms or keeping military installations apart from civilian ones.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Do you live under a rock?

I can tell you for a fact that there are kids in schools directing racial slurs at others and using racialized language and messaging to discriminate against and attack Jewish people this week. Do you think kids just come up with this stuff on their own? This is what they are exposed to at home and online.

To say that there is no racialized violence, or threat of violence, in Calgary is so boneheaded and shows a complete disconnect from reality.

[edited] - probably can't say that

Calgary is just as gross as every other place on earth, we're not special.

I live in the real world where as the answer to the question asked if you would feel safe going out with someone wearing a Israeli Hockey jersey is of course.

I never said Calgary was perfect, never said kids at school aren't saying dumb things. But if you think that going out with someone who has something clearly identifying them as Jewish puts you or them in some state of threat, I can say for a fact it isn't me living under a rock.

[activeStick]

Israel has decided to shorten the window to evacuate

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712871959619686576

[Fuzz]

This is going awful. Be better, world!

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

I'm not even sure what you're question was? If Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath party took over the world and then cut America's power off, would that be okay?

Well, I wouldn't support anyone taking over the world, especially not some crazed nationalist party that was parading around Saddam Hussein's image.

Are you just talking about the Iraqi people taking over the world and cutting off America's power? I probably wouldn't support that either.

Does America deserve retribution? That's a loaded question, and you really have to look at the good and the bad that America accomplishes and what they, as a democratic (although admittedly imperfect democratic) superpower has to deal with. Overall, I think you're analogy is poor.

However, if one country elected a bunch of racist fascists for their government, and then those racist fascists committed an act of genocide on their neighbours, I would be pretty understanding if they restricted resources to that neighbour in a following military intervention. Even it meant that civilians would suffer. It's a matter of degree, but there is no way to wage a war without civilians suffering. It's particularly difficult when the opponent refuses to follow basic rules of war like wearing uniforms or keeping military installations apart from civilian ones.

So when talking about retribution on civilians who re-elect a government of a country which lied to go to war and killed a million people there are a whole host of factors which we should consider, but a poor third world people who have seen occupation and their land taken away should immediately be punished. Got it. And what would be the "adequate" response for civilians in Israel who elected multiple governments who said they would expand settlements? Why are some civilians considered more valuable than others? The rules of war and human rights rules should apply to all, not just to who you think is right or feel a connection to.