Israel declares war on Hamas

[pseudoreality]

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Itse

Yes, Hamas winning that election was bad for peace, but Israel and the international community made it so much worse by trying to force the people of Gaza into submission right when they had been promised self-governance. That promise was in effect broken immediately, and created a belief on the Palestinian side that Israel just can't be trusted. It also created a situation where the only allies Hamas had left were mostly various Islamists groups or states. Their only allies from that point forward were those who wanted Hamas to fight Israel. A turn toward extremism was just inevitable.

I would also argue that the air strikes aren't really about protecting Israeli civilians, it's to protect IDF troops from the hazards ground fighting. Which is extremely fair, but not a longterm solution. At this point there probably isn't an alternative to re-occupying Gaza. Yes it will also end up in fighting and heavy civilian casualties, but at ground level it's possible to actually do real damage to Hamas, and after re-occupation Israel could start working towards making Gaza truly livable again, which is the only long term solution to the extremism.

The Battle of Mosul also needed troops to actually go in and take over.

It would likely be an ugly process too, and not guaranteed to succeed, but at least there would be a chance.

IDF should probably try to involve/recruit as many Palestinians as possible to work for an Israel led security force / police in Gaza, to make the conflict less about jews and muslims and more about security and terrorists.

If Israel doesn't trust the Palestinians with the resources to build infrastructure, then Israel needs to do it themselves.

And they need to start working towards ending the apartheid politics.

At this point it looks like the two-state solution is dead for Gaza anyway.

Hamas has been quite upfront with their goals from the get go. Surely, the events of this week should eliminate any benefit of the doubt. Even prior to winning the election, they were committing all sorts of suicide bombings and attacks against civilians. They then win the election and outright state that their goal is to use Gaza, and any concession Israel makes, as a staging ground for eventual genocide.

Are we to believe that only occurred because Israel took action to contain them?

[CliffFletcher]

In preparation for their assault, Israel warns the residents of Gaza to evacuate the north.

Hamas declares that this is fake news and tells residents to stay where they are.

Can there be any doubt that getting lots and lots of Palestinians killed is one of Hamas’ primary aims?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

In preparation for their assault, Israel warns the residents of Gaza to evacuate the north.

Hamas declares that this is fake news and tells residents to stay where they are.

Can there be any doubt that getting lots and lots of Palestinians killed is one of Hamas’ primary aims?

While this may be true, I also think that many Palestinians are also staying on their own accord because they fear a second Nakba.

Egypt has also echoed that sentiment
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...-for-civilians

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

People who have a different Sky Daddy can't be friends.

Israel is one of the least religious countries in the word.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ligious-places

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Israel is one of the least religious countries in the word.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ligious-places

Wanted to check the Gallup methodology but the poll doesn't exist anymore

EDIT: Seems Gallup was called out for their small samples and poor methodology



The PEW and Zuckerman numbers for Israel are wildly different as well.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

Counterpoint from my own eyes in Jordan today: Large protests in support of Palestinians in Amman today. So much so I was strongly advised to not go downtown and then police closed all roads in and out of downtown.

Pro-Palestine is also Anti-Israel.

My comment was also based on my own observations/chats etc.

I also shouldn't have lumped in Jordan as, at least the current regime, would rather not placate anti-Israel rhetoric in the face of their burgeoning tourism industry - especially the double whammy tourists of hitting Jordan and Israel together.

Edit: I forgot about Jordanian history with Palestinian resistance movements whom happened to assassinate a king

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Cappy

My understanding is the arab world loathes Palestinians, but they are merely a pawn in their goal to have the international community turn on Israel and brings them further to the goal of wiping Israel off the map.

Egyptians, Jordanians, Lebanese, Iranians, Iraqis, etc. they do not care one bit for Palestinians. In fact, seeing more dead Palestinian civilians on TV helps their goals more than anything.

Why doesn't it add up? because there is this collective superficial belief in NA that only white people are racist. And we see on TV countries like Egypt drone on against the harm being done to Palestinians while on the ground, they do nothing for actual Palestinians.

Strategically, there is also likely a belief that by accepting refugees/civilians, you may inadvertently accept Hamas fighters who continue their assaults' into Israel from your country. Israel has shown in the past (and present) they aren't afraid to lob some howitzer shells into Lebanon to put out rocket attacks.

I would 100% agree with your previous comment. Being born Palestinian is currently the most likely the unluckiest card you could draw in life.

This is such a weird take I've seen from some of you. Aside from it being untrue, if we're going to agree with this assertion, so what? What point are you trying to make? The point that the Palestinians need freedom and rights in their homeland? OK I can agree with that.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I too remember post-9/11 fear mongering

Tell you what dude. Let’s meet up later today. I will wear my Stand with Israel shirt or jersey from the Israeli National Hockey team and we will hit some bars across the City.

Would you feel safe?

Edit: or just a yulmake. Let’s do it.

[WCW Nitro]

I see some comments online and in the media that the Palestinians elected Hamas so are at least partly to blame for their predicament. Let's run with that logic for a minute. After the unprovoked Iraq War started, the American re-elected Bush. So if someone had the power to, would be it then have been ok to shutdown water, electricity, and food to the American population?

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Tell you what dude. Let’s meet up later today. I will wear my Stand with Israel shirt or jersey from the Israeli National Hockey team and we will hit some bars across the City.

Would you feel safe?

He should feel perfectly safe assuming you are going out in some city in NA.

How many people are likely to get killed in NA and Europe combined, let alone a smaller (in terms of the world) city like Calgary with a smallish radical islamic population?

Probably a bunch of other things going on in his life that are more likely to kill him than hanging out with a guy in an Israeli hockey jersey.

[Manhattanboy]

Oh I see. Anything short of getting killed is ok.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Oh I see. Anything short of getting killed is ok.

What else do you really think will happen in a city like Calgary?

[activeStick]

Trigger and content warning on the hidden stuff in the thread, but important for us to see as we won't be shown this given we largely consume curated content from the west, in the west.

Spoiler!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712603170839683197

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Spurs

What else do you really think will happen in a city like Calgary?

I don’t know. My point was parents are concerned for their kids safety and that was dismissed by a reference to post 9-11 fear mongering.

Actually I think we would be fine so long as we stay off college campuses.

[WCW Nitro]

"BBC journalists covering the attack on Israel were assaulted and held at gunpoint after they were stopped by police in the Israeli city of Tel Aviv."



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...t-67102956.amp

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I don’t know. My point was parents are concerned for their kids safety and that was dismissed by a reference to post 9-11 fear mongering.

Actually I think we would be fine so long as we stay off college campuses.

I think even if you went to college campuses and acted like you normally would you would be 100% fine as well, even if you went to purposefully provoke people on "the other side" you likely would walk away with very little problems either.

It sounds scary because we hear a story like the one in France but if you consider all the Universities and schools out there it shows how tiny a chance of anything happening to the average person is.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Tell you what dude. Let’s meet up later today. I will wear my Stand with Israel shirt or jersey from the Israeli National Hockey team and we will hit some bars across the City.

Would you feel safe?

Edit: or just a yulmake. Let’s do it.

WTF? You would be scared to wear a yalmake or pro-Israel shirt in fricken Calgary? That's wild. I wouldn't think anything of it. I truly don't believe there is an underlying anti-Semitic problem here that would make wearing either of those things unsafe.

Either I'm naive or you're off your rocker.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

DNA tests have already demonstrated that Israelis and Palestinians are more closely related than other groups in the region. It's already happened for centuries. Unfortunately, they can't see past their identities/labels/cultures/religions.

There is some research that suggests Arabs and Jews might have a genealogical isopoint from the 1400s AD. This was around the time that Christians reconquered Spain and most of the Muslims and Jews from Iberia were dispersed to North Africa and the Middle East. This sounds crazy recent, but when you consider that every white person has a common genealogical isopoint to about 1000 AD, and every human alive today could have one as recently as 2200 BC, it doesn't sound too crazy.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Sliver

WTF? You would be scared to wear a yalmake or pro-Israel shirt in fricken Calgary? That's wild. I wouldn't think anything of it. I truly don't believe there is an underlying anti-Semitic problem here that would make wearing either of those things unsafe.

Either I'm naive or you're off your rocker.

I don't think it is wide spread but it is here.

This is from June 2023

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/police-in...ight-1.6433776

It is a heated time right now for some segments of Calgary society. Do I think there would be an incident, no. Does that mean I totally discount some people's concerns, no.