The thing is, these people are going to the Conservatives not because they like them (I don't think) but because they see no other alternatives. They are tired of Trudeau and feel like he has lost the plot, and see (presumably) Jagmeet as just propping up the Libs (which is more or less true).
I suspect (with admittedly no empirical evidence) that this is a protest vote just to get the current Liberal leadership out. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there literally is no good option to vote for. Even if you think the Greens should be a viable alternative, the fact that May pushed herself back in didn't do anything to convince people that they are that viable alternative.
I've voted Conservative all my life (although I didn't vote in the last election). Yet the Conservative Party's unwillingness to cut ties with the far-right, and their willingness to cozy up to people with so much hate in their hearts, means I could never vote for them in their current iteration.
O'Toole really did try to bring them closer to center, recognizing that if you want to hold power, not just win a random election every now and then, then that is the key - not appealing to the fringe, but to the moderate. Never mind whether you believe that ideologically, the simple fact is with the way elections work, it's the cities that carry the elections, and more specifically, usually Toronto. There are 138 ridings in the rest of the country, and 199 in Ontario and Quebec. With all due respect to the other provinces, support there simply doesn't mean enough.
So yes, the cities may vote PP this time, but in many cases they won't be voting for him, but against the Libs/NDP.
One of the biggest criticism of the Libs is that they view themselves as the natural ruling party. But you know what? They're probably right. The Conservatives in one form or another have won 19 elections. The Liberals have won 25.
But since 1963, that number is 13 to 6. More than double. And Trudeau is in no rush to call an election because every day, Doug Ford is making the Conservatives look worse. He just shut down the science center because a couple of roof panels were in danger of collapsing - in the snow. The LCBO has just gone on strike.
PP probably will get in, but not because voters embrace him. I have a strong belief that first chance, he'll be right back out.
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I think you ought to actually brush up your reading on fascism and fascist rhetoric. Specifically, you should spend some time learning about neo-fascism, as your assertion that PP’s sentiments represent the opposite of fascism are not remotely fact-based.
To insinuate that PP may be a fascist because he observably uses fascist rhetoric doesn’t say anything about anyone, it’s reality and an important point of discussion that people should be interested engaging in. Nothing is gained but much could be lost through the outright refusal to acknowledge these real overlaps.
The conversation has nothing to do with Trudeau or the NDP. And the need to vote another party out is not an effective or historically favourable excuse for ignoring fascist rhetoric.
Trying to patronize yet again and treat any person with opposing views to yours as false or wrong, when it's your own views that need a reality check. Did you actually look up the ideology definition before going off on yet another grandstanding condescending rhetoric?
Neo-fascism usually includes ultranationalism, racial supremacy, populism, authoritarianism, nativism, xenophobia, and anti-immigration sentiment, sometimes with economic liberal issues,[1] as well as opposition to social democracy, parliamentarianism, Marxism, capitalism,[2] communism, and socialism (sometimes are opposed to liberalism and liberal democracy).[3] As with classical fascism, it occasionally proposes a Third Position as an alternative to market capitalism.[4]
To categorize the CPC and Poilievre into this is a huge stretch and just fringe fearmongering. That level of overexaggerating to say he's an outright fascist just puts you in the same fringe levels as the freedumb convoy folks calling Trudeau and Singh commies quite frankly and simply does not represent the majority of the average Canadian views. It's simply not worth discussing such types of opinions who is trying to convince us that center right conservative party is fascist. Would you go in genuine discussion with anyone claiming the Liberals or NDP to be communist?
Watching you and rubecube and other usuals trying your hardest to paint CPC and Poilievre as fascists / neo-fascists and branding anyone not agreeing as plebs, jumping up and down in anger because a few folks discussed Trudeau skipping on the Stampede, while Liberals are falling apart with MP after MP speaking out against Trudeau is classic.
Trying to patronize yet again and treat any person with opposing views to yours as false or wrong, when it's your own views that need a reality check. Did you actually look up the ideology definition before going off on yet another grandstanding condescending rhetoric?
To categorize the CPC and Poilievre into this is a huge stretch and just fringe fearmongering. That level of overexaggerating to say he's an outright fascist just puts you in the same fringe levels as the freedumb convoy folks calling Trudeau and Singh commies quite frankly and simply does not represent the majority of the average Canadian views. It's simply not worth discussing such types of opinions who is trying to convince us that center right conservative party is fascist. Would you go in genuine discussion with anyone claiming the Liberals or NDP to be communist?
Do you know what “rhetoric” means? Because that’s what we’re discussing. Keep up kiddo.
Nobody is calling PP a fascist, nor are they calling the CPC party fascist. In fact, saying “that level of overexaggerating to say he's an outright fascist” is hilarious considering:
Quote:
We can probably all agree that PP isn’t actually a fascist (yet) and that his election will (likely) not signal Canada’s descent into fascism… while also being intellectual and well-read enough to recognize fascist rhetoric and his use of it.
That’s… not outright calling anyone a fascist, is it? Unless you think “we can all agree he’s not a fascist” is secret code for “He’S aN OuTrIgHt FASCISSSST!!” lol.
You wouldn’t feel like you were being condescended to if you actually paid attention to the conversation instead of letting your blood boil over the second someone isn’t frothing at the mouth about Trudeau with you.
And, to help you out, I already pointed out the difference between acknowledging fascist rhetoric and calling someone a fascist:
Quote:
The idea that you’re not allowed to recognize fascist rhetoric is broadly idiotic. Hitler and Trump both used similar playbooks to get to power and appeal to the population. That doesn’t mean Trump = Hitler. Pointing out that PP is borrowing from the same playbook does not mean that PP = Trump = Hitler, either. PP doesn’t need to start an insurrection or get a concentration camp rolling for people to be able to point out fascist rhetoric.
So, once again, if you want to read instead of projecting your fit of emotions onto everyone else, you’ll feel less like people think you’re a pleb. But hey, you said yourself it wasn’t worth discussing while a few of us had a pretty interesting conversation about it, moved on, and then you brought it back to that with arms waving. Apparently you really, really wanted to discuss it lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebot
Watching you and rubecube and other usuals trying your hardest to paint CPC and Poilievre as fascists / neo-fascists and branding anyone not agreeing as plebs, jumping up and down in anger because a few folks discussed Trudeau skipping on the Stampede, while Liberals are falling apart with MP after MP speaking out against Trudeau is classic.
Here’s me jumping up in down and anger because people brought up Trudeau not attending stampede:
Quote:
What’s the probability that people complaining about Trudeau not coming to the Stampede have also complained about Trudeau coming to the Stampede in the past?
I sure sounded fired up there. My goodness. The funny part of this, of course, is that another former MP spoke out against Trudeau, and instead of discussing that you… went back to the fascism conversation… which we’d moved on from.
“Classic.”
You guys are going to have a really, really tough time when Trudeau is gone and you can’t paint everyone that is having a conversation you don’t like as Trudeau supporters. Keep crying about “the usuals” I guess.
Us “usuals” just call it having a conversation. Sorry you’re so scared every time we pop up. It’s a pretty small community.
Trying to patronize yet again and treat any person with opposing views to yours as false or wrong, when it's your own views that need a reality check. Did you actually look up the ideology definition before going off on yet another grandstanding condescending rhetoric?
Well at least I nailed where he's getting his definitions from.
Anyways, I'm done with the grade 9 reading comprehension skills and silly false equivalences. Let me know when you're actually comprehending what we're trying to say and want to have a grown up conversation.
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PP probably will get in, but not because voters embrace him. I have a strong belief that first chance, he'll be right back out.
It'll depend on who the Liberals select as their next leader. The bench isn't particularly strong and like the Conservatives (and the Liberals before them), it may take a few elections to find a winning persona.
And with Trudeau not willing to call an early election, the new 343 seat House is now active and the last decade of population shifts have resulted in riding changes that are a bit more favorable to the Conservatives including 3 new seats in Alberta.
I've never felt so down about the future of Canada in my adult lifetime. I think PP a complete clown, but I feel like anyone who would vote for Trudeau and the Liberals in the next election it's an absolute masochist.
Last edited by White Out 403; 07-05-2024 at 08:04 PM.
Well at least I nailed where he's getting his definitions from.
Anyways, I'm done with the grade 9 reading comprehension skills and silly false equivalences. Let me know when you're actually comprehending what we're trying to say and want to have a grown up conversation.
Firebot once fought valiantly to attest that Justin Trudeau, and Justin Trudeau alone, coined the term "dog-whistle".
You're likely excused - without prejudice - from pursuing any of this any further.
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Tim Hortons needing to host a job fair to find people rather than just rely people coming into stores or online suggests they are having difficulty hiring as opposed to showing people are having challanges finding work and with more than 200 locations having hundreds line up isn’t an unreasonable number either.
I agree the job numbers aren’t great I just hate unemployment porn.
I'd have to backpeddle in posts to find the number, but in order to maintain the current jobless count (in reference to the number of employment age people coming in through immigration and other channels) the country needs to create approximately 80K jobs a month. So creating 27K jobs last month is really bad, but losing 1400 jobs this months is tremendously bad. Also, many jobs were altered from full to part time.
I'd put the lack of a metric attaching job creation to immigration within the boundaries of the federal government.
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O'Toole was pulling the party closer to centre, closer to the PCs of old, in the hopes of making them more electable. The party base ate him alive for doing so.
The funny thing is that O'Toole's conservatives actually had more popular votes (1.1% more than the Liberals), yet they won 41 fewer seats. That's a pretty huge discrepancy for just a 1.1% difference in popular votes in favour of the runner-up.
Democracies aren't perfect, especially parliamentary democracies. Republican style democracies can be better, but not always. I don't see direct direct democracy or open government styles being realistic either, so I don't know what the solution is. I disagree with a lot of conservative views, but I am am starting to understand why many feel disenfranchised and why extremism is becoming more popular.
I have always been of the mind set that both sides should be represented fairly and the pendulum should swing back and forth between ruling parties for healthy democracies.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 07-06-2024 at 02:02 AM.
O'Toole was a good candidate. Unfortunately team Liberal was more enamoured in Trudeau's lies and corruption which was already very evident at the time. Instead of understanding that it is likely going to get worse they listened to the fear mongers and kept voting Liberal.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s former environment minister Catherine McKenna and a backbench MP Wayne Long say it’s time for the party to find a new leader, after the Liberals suffered a stunning defeat this week in a former Toronto stronghold.
“The Prime Minister has a legacy to be proud of but it’s time for new ideas, new energy and a new leader. There is too much at stake in this election especially on the economy and climate.”
McKenna was a high-profile minister who served in Trudeau’s cabinet from 2015 to 2021, first in charge of the environment file, and later responsible for the infrastructure portfolio.
