Right from Brad, serious questions about signing Fox.
I normally shy away from reading between the lines...or at least posting it, but my sense is:
- Fox wasn’t signing here, he was going UFA
- Dougie didn’t want to be here or similar situation
- Ferland was a give to get scenario
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Originally Posted by DazzlinDino
Can someone give me Coles notes, I have contacted the Flames about fixing the closed caption button. ATM still not working.
Basically he was admitting that there are/were serious doubts about being able to sign Fox before he just waited to become a UFA.
On the radio earlier today with the 960 guys, he was even more blatent about it saying there was little chance after talking to Fox's "representatives" that the kid was ever going to sign a deal with Calgary.
As such, he was a guy that was used to help consumate this deal.
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I said this a few times this month, but I am glad it was Hamilton and not Brodie, contrary to what most of the board feels. Yes, Brodie has been having issues, but he has proven himself capable of playing elite-level, game changing hockey at both ends of the ice. He is far and away the most dynamic presence on defence.
Hanifin sure sounds a heck of a lot like Brodie, no? For some of you that have a dislike to Brodie, that sounds like a bad thing. I think it is awesome.
Ferland for me is the real kick in the pants. Seemed polarizing here, but people sometimes expect too much consistency out of players. 20 goals AND playing that type of game isn't easy to backfill. He was solid at both ends of the ice too.
This is Ferland to me:
20 goals a season (and I bet more - he was improving every year)
Versatile throughout the lineup
Keeps opposing players honest
Was more than solid at moving the puck - passing and skating with the puck
Awesome along the boards and in the corners
Fantastic shot
He is not going to be replaced. There are few players in the NHL like Ferland. That top line - WITH Ferland - was one of the NHL's best. That was a solid line. He isn't some 4th liner as way too many posters are stating. Chiasson, Lazar, Hathaway, Jones - forgot who else. Any of these guys even came close to producing like Ferland did? Are any of these guys able to stick up to Gaudreau.
Ferland was also incredibly disciplined. Rarely takes a minor. Rarely put this team on the PK. That is amazing since he is a solid forechecker and, once again, the team leader in hits.
He was a huge and under-appreciated asset, and I think he will be missed. Flames lost Engelland and Ferland in successive off-seasons. Hockey is still a rough and tumble sport. I think that in part, Edmonton has been able to do well against the Flames due to their size and physicality. I think Calgary does struggle a bit against the bigger teams at times. I was thinking (and hoping) that Hathaway was going to be released this season, but can the Flames really afford to let him go now?
He is really the only player I am going to miss. Like I said, I would rather have kept Brodie than Hamilton as I think he is much more dynamic, and I am glad that we added another player that is more 'Brodie' in his play style.
Treliving referenced two things this off-season:
1) Leadership (I am sure Lindholm and Hanifin are great guys, but I would be surprised if they addressed leadership here - not a knock at them, I just expect Treliving to look for a vet of some sort)
2) Scoring - I think for this season at least, it will be a push at best. Whatever Lindholm makes over Ferland (which is not guaranteed btw), will probably be negated by what Hamilton would have provided over Hanifin.
Still, the Flames acquired two potentially important long-term core pieces. It was just a really expensive acquisition, especially dependent on how you view a guy like Ferland.
Treliving has stated numerous times that he likes heavy teams, so I do think that he will be in the market for size as well as in the market for scoring, as well as leadership.
I think that Stone or Kulak may be on the move as well - probably Stone.
This was a gamble trade, but sometimes you just have to roll the dice. If there really was any sort of issues personally with Hamilton, you have to expect a loss in a trade. Fox not signing next season - something I felt was a realistic potential threat - devalues him almost completely to sweetener level, just like Hickey was. Good luck on Carolina signing him - they also have a very deep defensive prospect pool, so 'Ha ha!' to Fox if indeed he was intending on not signing in Calgary.
Still, I will miss Ferland. Good on him for teaching that POS Rinaldo not to play dirty against the Flames.
Good roll of the dice all things considered. Either team can make the other look like morons. Hamilton might 'get it' and become a phenomenal 2-way defencemen (it isn't like he is a finished product), Ferland can very well turn into a 30G guy. Fox might really turn into something really special too.
So can Hanifin and Lindholm. Both highly touted players. Both entered Carolina with a TONNE of expectations on their shoulders. Yeah, they are going to the same coach, but they get to turn the page and start fresh with new line mates. It isn't like they are bad players - they both are young and they have both been improving every year, even if it didn't come as quickly as expected.
Looking forward to seeing how these pieces fit on the Flames next season. I think I will actually like the back-end more right away - Hanifin (if he is like Brodie) will be a much better skater with the puck and be a better puck distributor than Hamilton, and the pairs might be better. I was already thinking that Brodie is going to have a better season under Peters anyway with how Peters stated he wants the defencemen to operate, but getting back to his more familiar side and familiar partner makes this an even safer bet.
This off-season promised a lot of intrigue and interest, and it has been delivering. Lots of changes thus far.
Still miss Ferland.
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A couple of things that I haven't seen, or maybe missed in this thread.
- John Shannon from Sportsnet said according to ESPN after the trade. I'm guessing he said this to illustrate that Hamilton never quite fit in.
- Treliving said he isn't done changing the team and will be making more moves.
That second point is all I need to hear. I'm sure Treliving plans on adding at least one more forward and I wouldn't be surprised if he moves another defenceman.
On the first part, Shannon also said that he sees nothing wrong with going to museums, and thinks they’re great, but sometimes players prefer when the team stays together for dinners, as opposed to one guy doing his own thing.
Yeah, nope. This is a bad hockey trade. Hanifin might become as good as Hamilton, and if he does, the Flames might come out ahead on this. Depends on Fox.
That said I wouldn't compare it to the Phaneuf trade on either side. Hamilton isn't going to turn into a pumpkin like Phaneuf did - he's going to be a top pairing guy for years. And the other way, the guys the Flames got aren't junk, they're already good players with serious upside.
It's just a lot of upside risk with a lot of downside associated with it... you either lose the trade huge if Hanifin and Lindholm are more or less what they are, or you win it by a bit if they become something like what their ceiling looks like at this point (Lindholm a solid 2nd liner, Hanifin a solid #2 D). So yeah, bad trade, and then throwing Fox into the mix, who is a guy who might end up being pretty much on par with Hanifin... yikes. Scary possibilities. Give Brad credit, he's brave.
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I definitely think we'll really miss having a tough guy that can actually play. I think that is going to be harder to find than many people might realize.
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Originally Posted by snipetype
k im just not going to respond to your #### anymore because i have better things to do like #### my model girlfriend rather then try to convince people like you of commonly held hockey knowledge.
What the actual feck is going on here. All of the personal life crap is going too far.. What we know is something was up with Hamilton. Only the Flames know the full scope. Full stop. This is getting absurd. Even in jest this just poor taste.
A hockey player got traded. They had their reasons. End of story.
I definitely think we'll really miss having a tough guy that can actually play. I think that is going to be harder to find than many people might realize.
Ferly seemed to shy away from fighting after a some concussion issues. Can't help but wonder if that put a damper on some of his physicality.
Yeah, nope. This is a bad hockey trade. Hanifin might become as good as Hamilton, and if he does, the Flames might come out ahead on this. Depends on Fox.
That said I wouldn't compare it to the Phaneuf trade on either side. Hamilton isn't going to turn into a pumpkin like Phaneuf did - he's going to be a top pairing guy for years. And the other way, the guys the Flames got aren't junk, they're already good players with serious upside.
It's just a lot of upside risk with a lot of downside associated with it... you either lose the trade huge if Hanifin and Lindholm are more or less what they are, or you win it by a bit if they become something like what their ceiling looks like at this point (Lindholm a solid 2nd liner, Hanifin a solid #2 D). So yeah, bad trade, and then throwing Fox into the mix, who is a guy who might end up being pretty much on par with Hanifin... yikes. Scary possibilities. Give Brad credit, he's brave.
Even if both players back are exactly what they are the trade is pretty much a toss.
We got a D man back that’s several years younger, 14 points less production and WAY better defensively. I imagine that 14 point difference was easily eaten up by goals against from stupid badly time Hamilton penalties.
We traded out an improving sand paper 2/3 line winger and an exceptional defensive prospect that wasn’t going to sign here, and very well may become a UFA instead of signing there. In return we got a 1/2 center or winger.
No losers in this deal even on face value. If Fox signs there, that could be a big win for them, but that doesn’t mean it was a loss for us.
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I definitely think we'll really miss having a tough guy that can actually play. I think that is going to be harder to find than many people might realize.
Honestly, he was too rarely able to achieve the balance of “a tough guy who can play.”
He was fun to have on the team and i’ll always like him as a person and a player, but I don’t think he consistently did anything that would be hard to replace.
Even if both players back are exactly what they are the trade is pretty much a toss.
We got a D man back that’s several years younger, 14 points less production and WAY better defensively. I imagine that 14 point difference was easily eaten up by goals against from stupid badly time Hamilton penalties.
We traded out an improving sand paper 2/3 line winger and an exceptional defensive prospect that wasn’t going to sign here, and very well may become a UFA instead of signing there. In return we got a 1/2 center or winger.
No losers in this deal even on face value. If Fox signs there, that could be a big win for them, but that doesn’t mean it was a loss for us.
Please explain this for me. At least to make me feel better about this trade.
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When this rumor broke a couple days ago and I listened to Conroy on the fan it makes a lot of sense. They want to co tend for years to come and this trade is a little half step back but long term it keeps them more competitive imo.
I think they made the Hamilton deal as a way to speed up the rebuild while not doing something stupid like acquiring older players with picks and prospects. 2 years later after being swept in the first round of the playoffs they felt they were ready to take the next step to being a perennial playoff team and traded picks for a 35 year old goalie and a 27 year old Dman. Fast forward a year and they miss the playoffs by 11pts. This core is not working and in 3 years you are facing your first massive contract extension. Hamilton is going to cost at the bare minimum 8x8 on his next deal but easily he could push to Subban or above depending how the next 3 years go (if he was with Gio probably good)
I don’t think the Flames are where they want to be so they were able to move Hamilton and Ferland (another potential long term big money deal) for younger players. I fully expect 6+ year contracts for both Lindholm and Hanifin and they will come in at numbers that will be easy to fit under the cap. This team still has 4 years before they need to worry about their first massive extension (unless Brodie returns to 14-16 form)
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Yeah, nope. This is a bad hockey trade. Hanifin might become as good as Hamilton, and if he does, the Flames might come out ahead on this. Depends on Fox.
That said I wouldn't compare it to the Phaneuf trade on either side. Hamilton isn't going to turn into a pumpkin like Phaneuf did - he's going to be a top pairing guy for years. And the other way, the guys the Flames got aren't junk, they're already good players with serious upside.
It's just a lot of upside risk with a lot of downside associated with it... you either lose the trade huge if Hanifin and Lindholm are more or less what they are, or you win it by a bit if they become something like what their ceiling looks like at this point (Lindholm a solid 2nd liner, Hanifin a solid #2 D). So yeah, bad trade, and then throwing Fox into the mix, who is a guy who might end up being pretty much on par with Hanifin... yikes. Scary possibilities. Give Brad credit, he's brave.
Yep nope, you have no clue how this will turn out. The control alone on young high end talent makes this trade worth doing, over assets quickly out of the clubs control who have the opportunity to “strong arm” the club as soon as next season.
How it all ends up no one knows.
