2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by New Era

Draft and develop one.

Does that assume tanking to do so?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by New Era

Draft and develop one.

So does that mean tank?

I'm definitely on-board with that approach, I just hope we make a decision one way or the other. No more hanging out in the middle and hoping an under-skilled team can go on some magical run.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Does that assume tanking to do so?

No. There are no guarantees that tanking gets you that top line center either. Look up the road in Edmonton. How many first overalls did they have and came up empty? How many top five picks and nothing? It took the drop of a lottery ball when no one thought they had a chance to get them that #1 center. So just continue to grind away and try to find the diamond in the rough, like a #1 with the 25th pick. Maybe a lottery ball falls out way some day.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

So does that mean tank?

I'm definitely on-board with that approach, I just hope we make a decision one way or the other. No more hanging out in the middle and hoping an under-skilled team can go on some magical run.

That may be the only way it happens...but its not going to happen with this GM nor this coach.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by New Era

No. There are no guarantees that tanking gets you that top line center either. Look up the road in Edmonton. How many first overalls did they have and came up empty? How many top five picks and nothing? It took the drop of a lottery ball when no one thought they had a chance to get them that #1 center. So just continue to grind away and try to find the diamond in the rough, like a #1 with the 25th pick. Maybe a lottery ball falls out way some day.

So, continue to do exactly what they have been doing for all these years?

Do you not see a need for the team to take a different approach to get different results?

To me, the situation up North shows what that talent level can do for you. They are such a horribly managed team that the top draft picks they do have are the only reason why they have any sort of success. They aren't bad because of McDavid/Draisaitl, they are bad because they do dumb!@#$ like trade Hall for Larsson, trade two 2nd round picks for 10 games of Athanasiou, overpay players like Koskinen, Kassian, Chiasson, Russell etc, and while being incompetent on the draft floor unless they're picking top-3 (and even then, they've screwed it up). You can't overcome poor management.

Originally Posted by transplant99

That may be the only way it happens...but its not going to happen with this GM nor this coach.

Yeah, I don't think this team is going to tank. I think it goes beyond management and coaching though, I think it's an ownership decision. This team won't tank, which is why I think they should be taking the risk on Eichel. Players of that quality aren't available where we normally draft/seem to be poised to draft in the next few years - so if one becomes available, you absolutely go for it in my eyes.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by New Era

No. There are no guarantees that tanking gets you that top line center either. Look up the road in Edmonton. How many first overalls did they have and came up empty? How many top five picks and nothing? It took the drop of a lottery ball when no one thought they had a chance to get them that #1 center. So just continue to grind away and try to find the diamond in the rough, like a #1 with the 25th pick. Maybe a lottery ball falls out way some day.

I tend to disagree. Getting a high pick gives you a much higher chance of getting a stud. Edmonton seems to have ruined players for whatever reason. Could be their development system or it could be the supporting cast, but you remove Edmonton picks and there’s a good chance you’re getting a person to build a franchise around. Edmonton seems to be an outlier.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by transplant99

That may be the only way it happens...but its not going to happen with this GM nor this coach.

You mean it's not going to happen under Murray Edwards. The GM takes his orders from ownership and they brought in Darryl to win now. I just wish they had enough foresight to realize their main focus should be opening the new arena with a team heading upwards in trajectory as the city is losing interest in the constant mediocrity. This team was just horrible this season and I find it crazy that they still feel they can spin this roster into a winner by shuffling a few deck chairs. It's insanity.

As a fan of the franchise I feel this ownership is a curse. I give them full credit for paying their bills and providing their GM with ample resources to build a contender but they are incredibly narrow sighted when it comes to team building and never learn from past mistakes. It's the same thing year as we discuss the same topics year over year as the ongoing futility continues year after year, decade after decade. This organization has advanced to the 2nd round of the playoffs twice since 1989. How can Murray Edwards look in the mirror and think he's actually running the team the right way? It's a joke.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

So, continue to do exactly what they have been doing for all these years?

Do you not see a need for the team to take a different approach to get different results?

To me, the situation up North shows what that talent level can do for you. They are such a horribly managed team that the top draft picks they do have are the only reason why they have any sort of success. They aren't bad because of McDavid/Draisaitl, they are bad because they do dumb!@#$ like trade Hall for Larsson, trade two 2nd round picks for 10 games of Athanasiou, overpay players like Koskinen, Kassian, Chiasson, Russell etc, and while being incompetent on the draft floor unless they're picking top-3 (and even then, they've screwed it up). You can't overcome poor management.



Yeah, I don't think this team is going to tank. I think it goes beyond management and coaching though, I think it's an ownership decision. This team won't tank, which is why I think they should be taking the risk on Eichel. Players of that quality aren't available where we normally draft/seem to be poised to draft in the next few years - so if one becomes available, you absolutely go for it in my eyes.

They did it 7/8 years ago, dont know why they wouldnt do it again if deemed necessary.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You mean it's not going to happen under Murray Edwards. The GM takes his orders from ownership and they brought in Darryl to win now. I just wish they had enough foresight to realize their main focus should be opening the new arena with a team heading upwards in trajectory as the city is losing interest in the constant mediocrity. This team was just horrible this season and I find it crazy that they still feel they can spin this roster into a winner by shuffling a few deck chairs. It's insanity.

As a fan of the franchise I feel this ownership is a curse. I give them full credit for paying their bills and providing their GM with ample resources to build a contender but they are incredibly narrow sighted when it comes to team building and never learn from past mistakes. It's the same thing year as we discuss the same topics year over year as the ongoing futility continues year after year, decade after decade. This organization has advanced to the 2nd round of the playoffs twice since 1989. How can Murray Edwards look in the mirror and think he's actually running the team the right way? It's a joke.

Again....the day they traded Iginla was the day the rebuild started, so they have done it under Edwards.

Unfortunately the clubs highest ever draft pick which was supposed to be the guy to take this club places was a complete bust in that role.

So here we are.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by transplant99

They did it 7/8 years ago, dont know why they wouldnt do it again if deemed necessary.

The 2012/2013 season was lost, and at the deadline we sold Bouwmeester and Iginla - so selling on a failed season.

The 2013 Summer:

Tanguay and Sarich for O'Brien and Jones.
4th rounder for Galiardi
5th rounder for Russell
4th rounder for Colborne
Brossoit and Horak for Smid and Roy
Jackman for a 6th rounder
6th for MacDermid
Nemisz for Westgarth
Berra for a 2nd rounder
Stempniak for a 3rd rounder

We sent out a 4th, 5th, 4th, 6th and brought in a 2nd, 3rd and 6th. Pretty much all "hockey trades" brought back veteran players (Smid, O'Brien, Jones, Westgarth), but to Feaster's credit he didn't spend in free agency like a drunk sailor. Feaster's "build" got us the 4th overall pick. Would have been nice to have kept the 4th, 5th, and 6th rounder picks if it was a targeted tank-job, but hard to argue Russell's acquisition as it later turned into a 2nd round pick, but he also helped in the short-term which hurt us from a tanking perspective.

Then the team immediately went right back to spending in free agency and trying to win. So if 2013/2014 was a tank, it was a pretty light tank - as capping it off at a 1-year tank was certainly short sighted. I wonder if Feaster had plans to keep tanking, but Burke coming in (the mastermind behind trading Hamilton and Seguin for Kessel) and then bringing in Treliving...yikes, yeah I see where things went off the rails.

...was this team better off with Jay Feaster than they were with Brad Treliving and Brian Burke?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Again....the day they traded Iginla was the day the rebuild started, so they have done it under Edwards.

Unfortunately the clubs highest ever draft pick which was supposed to be the guy to take this club places was a complete bust in that role.

So here we are.

The rebuild was 2-3 years late and lasted about three years. I’d argue the Flames have never really carried out a rebuild. They’ve never moved out veterans for picks and prospects when their value was still high, and stockpiled multiple firsts and second round picks for multiple years to patiently build a new core through the draft. They’ve always waited too late to sell and started spending picks and going after UFAs to fill holes too soon.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by New Era

Draft and develop one.

If only it was that easy. If it was, every team would have a bonafide #1C franchise player.

Fact of the matter is the Flames do NOT have one and need one via trade, since we’re never bad enough to draft in the top 3 and not a good destination for UFAs.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by fleury

I tend to disagree. Getting a high pick gives you a much higher chance of getting a stud. Edmonton seems to have ruined players for whatever reason. Could be their development system or it could be the supporting cast, but you remove Edmonton picks and there’s a good chance you’re getting a person to build a franchise around. Edmonton seems to be an outlier.

A high draft pick is no guarantee of anything. Look at the Flames. Highest draft pick in team history was a massive bust. That pick pans out and becomes the same level player as Draisaitl and we likely aren't having these conversations. But the reality is that there are more swings and misses than there are hits, even when drafting high.

Take the fabled 2014 draft when Ekblad went 1st and three centers followed. #2 pick was Sam Reinhart, who is now a winger. #4 pick we don't have to rehash. The best center of the bunch was Draisaitl and he's really more of a winger now as well. So even with three very highly touted center prospects, all of which were supposed to be franchise level centermen, not a single one turned into what was drafted.

Originally Posted by ComixZone

The 2012/2013 season was lost, and at the deadline we sold Bouwmeester and Iginla - so selling on a failed season.

The 2013 Summer:

Tanguay and Sarich for O'Brien and Jones.
4th rounder for Galiardi
5th rounder for Russell
4th rounder for Colborne
Brossoit and Horak for Smid and Roy
Jackman for a 6th rounder
6th for MacDermid
Nemisz for Westgarth
Berra for a 2nd rounder
Stempniak for a 3rd rounder

We sent out a 4th, 5th, 4th, 6th and brought in a 2nd, 3rd and 6th. Pretty much all "hockey trades" brought back veteran players (Smid, O'Brien, Jones, Westgarth), but to Feaster's credit he didn't spend in free agency like a drunk sailor. Feaster's "build" got us the 4th overall pick. Would have been nice to have kept the 4th, 5th, and 6th rounder picks if it was a targeted tank-job, but hard to argue Russell's acquisition as it later turned into a 2nd round pick, but he also helped in the short-term which hurt us from a tanking perspective.

Then the team immediately went right back to spending in free agency and trying to win. So if 2013/2014 was a tank, it was a pretty light tank - as capping it off at a 1-year tank was certainly short sighted. I wonder if Feaster had plans to keep tanking, but Burke coming in (the mastermind behind trading Hamilton and Seguin for Kessel) and then bringing in Treliving...yikes, yeah I see where things went off the rails.

...was this team better off with Jay Feaster than they were with Brad Treliving and Brian Burke?

And this is why a rebuild is such a horrible idea. Nothing is ever enough. The fanbase will never be happy regardless of what is done. You didn't burn it to the ground hard enough. Or, you should have got better players to support the young talent so they don't bust. Rebuilds are very difficult and the vast majority of them fail. With the advent of the new draft rules and lottery system, the likelihood of a scorched earth approach working is pretty small. All you're doing is making sure you have years of getting your head caved in with no real guarantee of a brighter future ahead, like previous years. Unless you happen to get that first pick lottery ball to select that generational talent that comes along every decade or so, you're doomed to suck. Better to have a good scouting team that can find talent, and then a good development program to get the most out of the players you pick. Find the diamonds in the rough and profit. The Lightning have been great because of Stamkos and Hedman. The Lightning have been great because of Braydon Point (#79), Nikita Kucherov (#58), Anthony Cirrelli (#72), Alex Kilhorn (#77), Ondej Palat (#208!), Cedric Paquette (#101), and so on. It also doesn't hurt that they pulled Yanni Gourde and Tyler Johnson out of thin air as free agents. Tampa has a great system. We need to emulate that rather than crap the bed for half a decade and hope things fall into place because we draft a McDavid.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

If only it was that easy. If it was, every team would have a bonafide #1C franchise player.

Fact of the matter is the Flames do NOT have one and need one via trade, since we’re never bad enough to draft in the top 3 and not a good destination for UFAs.

The system is no longer setup that you can suck and you're guaranteed of drafting top two. You can be dead last and you have better odds of drafting third. So of the top centers that means you can forget about getting a number one by sucking. The odds are better for teams that try to be competitive because of the damn lottery. But things aren't as bad as some like to paint the picture. Here's where some of the top 20 centers have been drafted.

Mark Scheifele - #7
Mika Zibanejad - #6
Sebastian Aho - #35
JT Miller - #15
Ryan O'Reilly - #33
Brayden Point - #79
Antze Kopitar - #11
Matthew Barzal - #16
Patrice Bergeron - #45

The talent is out there, your scouts just have to identify it and develop it.

[ComixZone]

As good as the Lightning drafted, they don’t win anything without Hedman (and perhaps Stamkos’ leadership?).

You need the top picks and you need to be one of the best managed teams in the league. Doing one without the other doesn’t get you anything.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by New Era

The system is no longer setup that you can suck and you're guaranteed of drafting top two. You can be dead last and you have better odds of drafting third. So of the top centers that means you can forget about getting a number one by sucking. The odds are better for teams that try to be competitive because of the damn lottery. But things aren't as bad as some like to paint the picture. Here's where some of the top 20 centers have been drafted.

Mark Scheifele - #7
Mika Zibanejad - #6
Sebastian Aho - #35
JT Miller - #15
Ryan O'Reilly - #33
Brayden Point - #79
Antze Kopitar - #11
Matthew Barzal - #16
Patrice Bergeron - #45

The talent is out there, your scouts just have to identify it and develop it.

Look at teams that have won the cup multiple times since the salary cap era:

Blackhawks - 2010, 2013, 2015
Penguins - 2009, 2016, 2017
Kings - 2012, 2014

And possibly the Lightning again this season (along with 2020).

All 4 of those teams had at least one top 3 pick to help push the team to the top. In the LA Kings’ case, it was Doughty who was picked in the top 3.

[Lanny_McDonald]

So what you're saying is the Flames should just mail it in every year until they get a top three pick, then be concerned about drafting and developing talent. So what do you say to teams that have drafted top three and have #### the bed endlessly? What is their problem? They supposedly have the magic bullet, that top three pick. Why do Edmonton and Buffalo NOT have Stanley Cups rolling in?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by New Era

The system is no longer setup that you can suck and you're guaranteed of drafting top two. You can be dead last and you have better odds of drafting third. So of the top centers that means you can forget about getting a number one by sucking. The odds are better for teams that try to be competitive because of the damn lottery. But things aren't as bad as some like to paint the picture. Here's where some of the top 20 centers have been drafted.

Mark Scheifele - #7
Mika Zibanejad - #6
Sebastian Aho - #35
JT Miller - #15
Ryan O'Reilly - #33
Brayden Point - #79
Antze Kopitar - #11
Matthew Barzal - #16
Patrice Bergeron - #45

The talent is out there, your scouts just have to identify it and develop it.

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Pittsburgh x3 Top 3 picks since 2004: 4 (2 x 1st, 1x 2nd) none since 2006
Chicago x3 Top 3 Picks since 2004: 4 (1 x 1st, 3x 3rd)
LA x2 Top 3 picks since 2004: 2 (2 x 2nd) *Only doughty was around for their competitive time
Tampa x1 Top 3 picks since 2004: 3 (1x 1st, 1x 2nd, 1x 3rd)
Boston x1 Top3 Picks since 2004: 1 (2nd)
St. Louis x1 top 3 picks since 2004: 1 (1st)
Washington x1 top 3 picks since 2004: 1 (1st)
Carolina x1 Top 3 picks since 2004: 2 (1 x 2nd, 1x 3rd) Eric Staal at 2nd overall just misses the cut in 2003
Anaheim x1 Top 3 picks since 2004: 1 (2nd)
Detroit x1 0 BUT DESPERATELY TRYING TO GET ONE RIGHT NOW.

You can't win a stanley cup without drafting in the top 3 in the cap era. It doesn't happen. Every one of these teams also had multiple top 5 and top 10 picks too.

Gotta draft in the top 5 multiple times to win the Stanley cup, and almost always at least once in the top 3.

So either we tank, we trade for a top 3 selection (eichel), or we continue to not win any cups.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by New Era

So what you're saying is the Flames should just mail it in every year until they get a top three pick, then be concerned about drafting and developing talent. So what do you say to teams that have drafted top three and have #### the bed endlessly? What is their problem? They supposedly have the magic bullet, that top three pick. Why do Edmonton and Buffalo NOT have Stanley Cups rolling in?

There is something to this, you need to be able to switch off the suck so to speak, and usually that is tied esoterically to some notion of "culture".

But this does seem to make sense. The teams that have multiple top 3 picks that arent winning, Edmonton, Buffalo, are historical losers. They've had losing cultures for more than a decade straight. Too early to say about Jersey IMO. But that's what we're talking about here. As was said above, you have to combine more with the top 3 picks (have to have deft management signing good contracts to support these guys for e.g.) but in all scenarios you still need a top 3 pick.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

So, continue to do exactly what they have been doing for all these years?

Do you not see a need for the team to take a different approach to get different results?

To me, the situation up North shows what that talent level can do for you. They are such a horribly managed team that the top draft picks they do have are the only reason why they have any sort of success. They aren't bad because of McDavid/Draisaitl, they are bad because they do dumb!@#$ like trade Hall for Larsson, trade two 2nd round picks for 10 games of Athanasiou, overpay players like Koskinen, Kassian, Chiasson, Russell etc, and while being incompetent on the draft floor unless they're picking top-3 (and even then, they've screwed it up). You can't overcome poor management.



Yeah, I don't think this team is going to tank. I think it goes beyond management and coaching though, I think it's an ownership decision. This team won't tank, which is why I think they should be taking the risk on Eichel. Players of that quality aren't available where we normally draft/seem to be poised to draft in the next few years - so if one becomes available, you absolutely go for it in my eyes.

What they need to do differently is stop spending top 2 round draft picks on players like Hamonic, Lazar and Elliott.

Looks bad in retrospect when young players like Dobson, Formenton and Kyrou were picked with those and we have nothing to show for it.

I don’t mind trading picks like that but it should be for players like Hamilton and not defensive dmen, reclamation projects or backup goalies.

We also need to be smart and trade players like Brodie away as pending free agents and not lose them for nothing because of a fruitless effort to make a run with a team with plenty of holes.

These are the types of things that set an organization back unless you are actually making it out of the 1st round of the playoffs and building a winning foundation.