Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[Angelino]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

The Flames style of play is terrible. Players were brought in to augment that style of play.

Get faster more skilled players. Play a more skillful style (play in the middle of the ice, use speed instead of the mucking it up along the boards and the default 'get pucks deep' style they currently play) like the good teams (NSH, WPG, TBL, BOS, TOR etc) play.

Get the defence activated into the attack.

Treliving has seemingly embraced this boring style (coaches hired, players brought in). Bill Parcell's used to say:

You are what you are until you change.

Maybe Treliving’s daddy Brian Burke has something to do with the recent truculent acquisitions of Hamonic, Stewart, Brouwer, etc. I don’t think we will ever really know.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Correlation does not equal causation. You are a frequent victim of this fallacy.

Are you going to post this every time someone mentions corsi?

[blender]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

The Flames style of play is terrible. Players were brought in to augment that style of play.

Get faster more skilled players. Play a more skillful style (play in the middle of the ice, use speed instead of the mucking it up along the boards and the default 'get pucks deep' style they currently play) like the good teams (NSH, WPG, TBL, BOS, TOR etc) play.

Get the defence activated into the attack.

Treliving has seemingly embraced this boring style (coaches hired, players brought in). Bill Parcell's used to say:

You are what you are until you change.

Really agree with the comment about the middle of the ice. It is so obvious watching teams like the ones you mentioned own that area and the Flames working hard around the perimeter.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Are you going to post this every time someone mentions corsi?

Are you suggesting that the posts are caused by the mentioning of corsi?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Thanks for the lesson on pick values. That doesn't change the fact that a lot of 1st round picks traded nowadays are "protected". It's a choice like when giving a UFA a NMC that you make with a certain level of risk and part of being a good bargainer is sticking to your guns and not making bad concessions. It's why Brian Burke managed to fleece a lot of teams in trades and something I would have thought Treliving may have learned from him.

You make it sound like Treliving simply forgot to make it unprotected.

Much like giving a UFA a NTC, it's a heavily negotiated point.

You can "stick to you guns", but the likely result is that you will likely be outbid by someone who doesn't.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

You make it sound like Treliving simply forgot to make it unprotected.

Much like giving a UFA a NTC, it's a heavily negotiated point.

You can "stick to you guns", but the likely result is that you will likely be outbid by someone who doesn't.

So let someone else overpay for an average dman (second pairing dmen are average since there are, you know, three pairings) and spend your assets on someone, who can actually make your team better.

Your bar for GM is quite low. He is paid millions to correctly evaluate where the team is, identify players that can improve our team and negotiate smart deals for them. Treliving failed on all three fronts in this one deal. He misread the team, had to overpay to make up for his lack of negotiating skills and in the end we are not any better with Harmonic, than we were without him. A triple fail by Tre here.

[Itse]

Feaster inherited a horrible mess, but still managed to create a more entertaining and more succesful team. (It was essentially Feasters team that made the 2nd round of the playoffs.) Maybe he got lucky and maybe he didn't, but that's still the bar for Treliving. He has to show he can get at least the same results.

When we're talking about Treliving, it doesn't even really matter where people think the problems are, because Treliving is ultimately responsible anyway. Bottom line right now, under Treliving we've lost a ton of draft picks while the results in the standings have been trending down from average. GM's are judged in the longterm so he has time to correct his mistakes, but he needs to start showing something soon. (And by that I mean next couple of seasons.)

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by Itse

Feaster inherited a horrible mess, but still managed to create a more entertaining and more succesful team. (It was essentially Feasters team that made the 2nd round of the playoffs.) Maybe he got lucky and maybe he didn't, but that's still the bar for Treliving. He has to show he can get at least the same results.

When we're talking about Treliving, it doesn't even really matter where people think the problems are, because Treliving is ultimately responsible anyway. Bottom line right now, under Treliving we've lost a ton of draft picks while the results in the standings have been trending down from average. GM's are judged in the longterm so he has time to correct his mistakes, but he needs to start showing something soon. (And by that I mean next couple of seasons.)

Totally agree, under Hartley, the team missed the playoff as well, and have multiple losing skids, but I have never turn the tv off in the middle of the game. I have always watch to the bitter end. But this season, after the team gave up a goal, it's almost not worth watching anymore. And this make me sad.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Itse

Feaster inherited a horrible mess, but still managed to create a more entertaining and more succesful team. (It was essentially Feasters team that made the 2nd round of the playoffs.) Maybe he got lucky and maybe he didn't, but that's still the bar for Treliving. He has to show he can get at least the same results.

When we're talking about Treliving, it doesn't even really matter where people think the problems are, because Treliving is ultimately responsible anyway. Bottom line right now, under Treliving we've lost a ton of draft picks while the results in the standings have been trending down from average. GM's are judged in the longterm so he has time to correct his mistakes, but he needs to start showing something soon. (And by that I mean next couple of seasons.)

I think this is indicative of a problem with some of the Flames brain trust that transfers to some of the fans.

That is not the bar for Treliving. The bar is relative to the other GM's in the league right now. Not other Flames GM's. Same with the coaches, the bar is other coaches in the league.

If we allow success to be determined as "he was better than X former Flame coach/GM/goalie/center/winger" or "better than the Oilers" then we just allow this mediocre club to continue to be so because, more than likely, those "formers" were bad.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Are you going to post this every time someone mentions corsi?

Yes, along with unicorns, and leprechauns, and other things that have no valuable meaning.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Itse

Feaster inherited a horrible mess, but still managed to create a more entertaining and more succesful team. (It was essentially Feasters team that made the 2nd round of the playoffs.) Maybe he got lucky and maybe he didn't, but that's still the bar for Treliving. He has to show he can get at least the same results.

When we're talking about Treliving, it doesn't even really matter where people think the problems are, because Treliving is ultimately responsible anyway. Bottom line right now, under Treliving we've lost a ton of draft picks while the results in the standings have been trending down from average. GM's are judged in the longterm so he has time to correct his mistakes, but he needs to start showing something soon. (And by that I mean next couple of seasons.)

Feaster did nothing to make the mess better. He lost trade after trade. He left 2 fantastic parting gifts in Monahan and Gaudreau and a bottom 4 team with a top pick.

Treliving got a ever so slightly worse return on a pending UFA Kris Russel than Feaster did on Jay Bouwmeester with a year left in his deal.

It is cringe worthy when anyone tries and remembers the Feaster era in a positive light. He was an embarrassingly bad GM. He let his scouts draft Johnny and that is about it.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Pointman

So let someone else overpay for an average dman (second pairing dmen are average since there are, you know, three pairings) and spend your assets on someone, who can actually make your team better.

Your bar for GM is quite low. He is paid millions to correctly evaluate where the team is, identify players that can improve our team and negotiate smart deals for them. Treliving failed on all three fronts in this one deal. He misread the team, had to overpay to make up for his lack of negotiating skills and in the end we are not any better with Harmonic, than we were without him. A triple fail by Tre here.

You miss the mark with your comment that treliving is not a strong negotiator. Other than his UFA signings I can't think of another misstep. To have our core locked on for the term and dollars is pretty solid work.

This season went off the rails for a number of reasons. The Hamonic trade was a good move at the time it was made. Was it a high price? Yes, but what were his options? sign Alzner? Chase Shattenkirk? Sign Michael Del Zotto? Are any of those definitively better than Hamonic? Not in my eyes.

Treliving good moves outweigh the poor ones by a fair margin. Show me a GM who hasn't 'lost' a trade or two and I'll show you santa clause
(Whisper voice; he doesn't exist).

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Feaster did nothing to make the mess better. He lost trade after trade. He left 2 fantastic parting gifts in Monahan and Gaudreau and a bottom 4 team with a top pick.

Treliving got a ever so slightly worse return on a pending UFA Kris Russel than Feaster did on Jay Bouwmeester with a year left in his deal.

It is cringe worthy when anyone tries and remembers the Feaster era in a positive light. He was an embarrassingly bad GM. He let his scouts draft Johnny and that is about it.

This is patently not true and gets repeated all the time. What Feaster did and what all GMs do is set the parameters of they type of players he wants drafted.

Feaster saw that the Flames had previously (under Sutter) wanted traits like size, toughness, Western Canadian, ruggedness etc.

That's why JD Watts, Chucko, Prust etc were drafted - do scouts get blamed for those picks?

Feaster put a premium on hockey IQ, skill and character - you can go back and watch interviews where hockey ops guys talk about fans being proud of the players we draft and put Flames' sweaters on.

So Feaster did let scouts draft Gaudreau - he didn't draft them himself but he stated these are the traits we want, go find them.

It drives me crazy how people like to revise history and take away credit where credit is due.

I'm not saying he was a great GM and he had his faults but every GM selects the type of players they want drafted.

Without Feaster the Flames would've never drafted Gaudreau. You can see evidence of this when Burke became interim GM and see the 2014 draft class where he wanted size and truculence (Smith, Olaf Mattson etc).

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ in addition to implementing a philosophy favouring speed and hockey IQ, he implemented a coach that instilled an identity.

Tre replaced that with a guy who took his tag line from Izzy Mandelbaum

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Feaster did nothing to make the mess better. He lost trade after trade. He left 2 fantastic parting gifts in Monahan and Gaudreau and a bottom 4 team with a top pick.

Treliving got a ever so slightly worse return on a pending UFA Kris Russel than Feaster did on Jay Bouwmeester with a year left in his deal.

It is cringe worthy when anyone tries and remembers the Feaster era in a positive light. He was an embarrassingly bad GM. He let his scouts draft Johnny and that is about it.

Exactly. People have terrible memories when it comes to Feaster. The guy literally tried to trade Monahan for 2 years of Ryan O'Reilly. He traded away Iginla, Regher, and Jbo for nothing. He tried to sign Brad Richards who we would still be paying to this day. Galiardi, Smid, Wideman, O'Brien, Jones, etc. Jay dodged some major bullets that could have really set the franchise back.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

This is patently not true and gets repeated all the time. What Feaster did and what all GMs do is set the parameters of they type of players he wants drafted.

Feaster saw that the Flames had previously (under Sutter) wanted traits like size, toughness, Western Canadian, ruggedness etc.

That's why JD Watts, Chucko, Prust etc were drafted - do scouts get blamed for those picks?

Feaster put a premium on hockey IQ, skill and character - you can go back and watch interviews where hockey ops guys talk about fans being proud of the players we draft and put Flames' sweaters on.

So Feaster did let scouts draft Gaudreau - he didn't draft them himself but he stated these are the traits we want, go find them.

It drives me crazy how people like to revise history and take away credit where credit is due.

I'm not saying he was a great GM and he had his faults but every GM selects the type of players they want drafted.

Without Feaster the Flames would've never drafted Gaudreau. You can see evidence of this when Burke became interim GM and see the 2014 draft class where he wanted size and truculence (Smith, Olaf Mattson etc).

This is actually not true. Button is on record for saying Daryl was the one who revamped the scouting department and changed the drafting philosophy. The article about it has been posted here many times.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ wasn’t Feaster following the owners’ direction?

He wasn’t brought in to blow it up. In the beginning I understood his marching orders were first to try and win with the core he had.

He is taking a lot of heat for the things that didn’t actually end up happening.

I don’t even particularly like him as a GM but he did blow it up, and build the roster that made the second round of the playoffs.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Hackey

This is actually not true. Button is on record for saying Daryl was the one who revamped the scouting department and changed the drafting philosophy. The article about it has been posted here many times.

Sutter changed what he wanted in drafted players with the Backlund draft but he still preferred the bigger players. And it shows that the GM has the call in what traits they want drafted.

I do give Sutter credit for this he saw the league was changing after 05 lockout and changed.

But every GM sets these. That's why they have the amateur scouting meetings in December and go over what they are looking for.

I realize people hate Feaster but he did not just get out of the way and let Button draft Gaudreau. Feaster stated the parameters and scouts go looking for those players.

It's also why Treliving gets credit for drafting players like Mangiapane and Phillips while Burke is his boss. The GM decides.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Hackey

This is actually not true. Button is on record for saying Daryl was the one who revamped the scouting department and changed the drafting philosophy. The article about it has been posted here many times.

You think the Flames have continued to draft for the same players Darryl wanted even after he left the organization?

Makes zero sense. Its one of the areas where GMs put their stamp on - what kind of team they want to build.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Hackey

The guy literally tried to trade Monahan for 2 years of Ryan O'Reilly.

And Treliving may have literally traded Rasmus Dahlin for 3 years of Travis Hamonic.

And ROR was an RFA after that, not a UFA.

And a 2013 Flames team with ROR and a healthy Kipper isn't drafting 6th overall.

And no, Feaster isn't a model GM. Steve Yzerman is a model GM. Feaster was just a better management person than Tre and Burke.