Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Lots of examples out there where you can have a boss that's really smart, nice guy but not everyone follows his lead. To make matters worse GG doesn't seem to be able to help this team create an identity. Are we a fast team, skilled or the hardest working. The Flames don't seem to have any identity.

BT is a nice guy, a smart man hopefully he adds a few more boxes that check off on his coaching/players lists so he can get the right hire/players for this team.

I am positive the first is not, and I've been sceptical of the second.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I agree to an extent but as a fan I would love to know why Treliving didn't lottery protect the pick. Would the Islanders not accept that or was he so confident this was a playoff team that he didn't make it a big enough sticking point in negotiations?

I assume you understand that a “protected” lottery pick has less value than an unprotected one.

And there’s your answer.

You may as well ask “Why didn’t Treliving give the Islanders a 3rd round pick instead of a 2nd?

I think we can assume that the Islanders wanted the pick unprotected, and Treliving correctly assumed that the extra value he lost in leaving it unprotected wasn’t that material.

It is more material today, but it is still unlikely to cost the Flames.



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[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

You’re correct. Meant more so that we trade Bennett for a change of scenery for his sake though. He can go take penalties for another team. Might actually be a net benefit. Being one of the most penalized teams in the league does not help us win considering our scoring troubles. Cleaning up their penalty situation in the future could result in several more wins next season.

Bennett didn't take many penalties pre-Gulutzan. He probably wouldn't post-Gulutzan.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Bennett didn't take many penalties pre-Gulutzan. He probably wouldn't post-Gulutzan.

How would the coach be responsible for a player taking dumb penalties? Not everything can be his fault

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

How would the coach be responsible for a player taking dumb penalties? Not everything can be his fault

And yet Sam Bennett did not take many penalties under the previous coach. It wasn't even a topic of discussion before our system became "MoAR PUCKBATTLES"

It's actually a fact that teams that play a certain style take more penalties.

[jayswin]

^^^^^^

Is that true, though? I seem to recall Bennett was taking penalties right away but because he was a promising, tough playing prospect we liked it and chalked it up to a young, eager budding star.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

And yet Sam Bennett did not take many penalties under the previous coach. It wasn't even a topic of discussion before our system became "MoAR PUCKBATTLES"

It's actually a fact that teams that play a certain style take more penalties.

Correlation does not equal causation. You are a frequent victim of this fallacy.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by jayswin

^^^^^^

Is that true, though? I seem to recall Bennett was taking penalties right away but because he was a promising, tough playing prospect we liked it and chalked it up to a young, eager budding star.

Remember, Bennett had one of the best penalty draw to take ratios in the NHL as a rookie. Suddenly he can't draw any and takes way more.

[jayswin]

edit: Nope, it appears you're right. 37 PIMs in 77 games under Hartley, followed by 75 and 59 (so far) these past two seasons.

[GranteedEV]

I'm not saying that Bennett doesn't own his penalties under Gulutzan. But he is put in puck battles along the boards on dump ins in this system, rather than carrying the puck with speed and trying to make things happen with his skill. Most of his penalties come on those puck battles that weren't employed in Hartley's system.

Players still took dumb penalties under the previous coach, but they didn't take as many of these "could be called on every shift" type penalties because they were not instructed to play that way.

Now whether that is a valid choice is up for discussion.

but Bennett has had a season with relatively few penalties.

[scotty2hotty]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Correlation does not equal causation. You are a frequent victim of this fallacy.

No need to be pedantic here. Of course correlation does not equal causation - but this board would be pretty boring without speculation.

This team won the division win Darryl Sutter! He’s a great coach!
- sorry, correlation does not equal causation. Your opinion is invalid.

This team made it to the SCF with Iggy as their leader! He’s a great player!
- sorry, correlation does not equal causation. Your opinion is invalid.

This team has missed the playoffs with this coaching staff. They must be no good!
- sorry, correlation does not equal causation. Your opinion is invalid.

At what point are we allowed to just be fans and point out correlations without critiques from the Logic Police?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by jayswin

edit: Nope, it appears you're right. 37 PIMs in 77 games under Hartley, followed by 75 and 59 (so far) these past two seasons.

Specifically WRT Minors:

2017-18 - 27 in 78GP
2016-17 - 30 in 81GP
2015-16 - 16 in 77GP

I think people would be pretty content if Bennett cut his penalties down to sixteen minors in a season.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I'm not saying that Bennett doesn't own his penalties under Gulutzan. But he is put in puck battles along the boards on dump ins in this system, rather than carrying the puck with speed and trying to make things happen with his skill. Most of his penalties come on those puck battles that weren't employed in Hartley's system.

Players still took dumb penalties under the previous coach, but they didn't take as many of these "could be called on every shift" type penalties because they were not instructed to play that way.

Now whether that is a valid choice is up for discussion.

but Bennett has had a season with relatively few penalties.

Is there anything, in your eyes, that Bennett is responsible for regarding his play over the past two years? Or is it all Glen Gulutzans fault?

One way or the other, it looks more than likely Sam won't be playing under GG next year whether that's here in Calgary or elsewhere. Care to make a bold prediction on what his year is going to look like? 30 goals? top 6 impact forward? 60 points? 70 points?

I'm not seeing a meteoric rise to stardom here. He could be playing for Scotty Bowman and it wouldn't change much.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Is there anything, in your eyes, that Bennett is responsible for regarding his play over the past two years? Or is it all Glen Gulutzans fault?

One way or the other, it looks more than likely Sam won't be playing under GG next year whether that's here in Calgary or elsewhere. Care to make a bold prediction on what his year is going to look like? 30 goals? top 6 impact forward? 60 points? 70 points?

I'm not seeing a meteoric rise to stardom here. He could be playing for Scotty Bowman and it wouldn't change much.

Let's just say this: I don't think this team is as bad as it can feel at times and that is true for every individual.

Give me this year's roster.

Take away the plugs - Brouwer, Hathaway, Glass. Replace Stone with Andersson too. Let Shore succeed Stajan.

Replace Hamonic with an average left side #4 defenseman who can give you 50% more offense (not that hard. Del Zotto and Forbort come to mind).

Replace Gulutzan with a coach who fits the roster. Emphasis on the fit part.

Find some players with footspeed in that Andrew Cogliano, Carl Hagelin, Paul Byron, Ondrej Palat mold. See if Frolik and Stone can be part of this trade. Preferably get a right shot back. Generally replace useless size with useful speed.

Call up the prospects worth calling up - Rittich, Mangiapane, Kylington, Dube, Phillips.

You have a very good team. WITH Bennett, Brodie, Ferland, etc. All those guys people want to ship off solely for having some semblance of value.

Treliving deserves heat for moves he's made, like bringing in a lot of plugs and trading away picks. But the roster isn't as broken as to be unfixable without giving up on Bennett / Brodie / Ferland etc.

It doesn't matter whether Bennett is to see a meteoric rise to stardom. He mostly just needs to get back to the level he displayed as a nineteen year old in his first season in the NHL. That's a good player on any roster and a better player than Treliving acquisitions like Frolik, Brouwer, Raymond. Not a "liability" as he has been framed. And I think he is a better player now than he was then - but a far less confident one playing a system in which he does not fit.

As for what I see Bennett as, I don't know. I think he shows similar skill to someone like Brayden Schenn and deserves similar patience. Schenn was hardly lighting it up at the same age. But I am sure someone would say I am cherrypicking. So be it. He is Brayden Schenn to me and a more penalty takey Nail Yakupov to you.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I assume you understand that a “protected” lottery pick has less value than an unprotected one.

And there’s your answer.

You may as well ask “Why didn’t Treliving give the Islanders a 3rd round pick instead of a 2nd?

I think we can assume that the Islanders wanted the pick unprotected, and Treliving correctly assumed that the extra value he lost in leaving it unprotected wasn’t that material.

It is more material today, but it is still unlikely to cost the Flames.



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Thanks for the lesson on pick values. That doesn't change the fact that a lot of 1st round picks traded nowadays are "protected". It's a choice like when giving a UFA a NMC that you make with a certain level of risk and part of being a good bargainer is sticking to your guns and not making bad concessions. It's why Brian Burke managed to fleece a lot of teams in trades and something I would have thought Treliving may have learned from him.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Bennett didn't take many penalties pre-Gulutzan. He probably wouldn't post-Gulutzan.

Waa Gulutzan also the coach of The Kingston Frontenacs? Because Sam Bennett was a penalty minute machine back in juniors too. I know you’re a big fan of scapegoating, but coaching can’t be blamed for Bennett’s penalty problem. He was even scratched for a game once for being so undisciplined. At some point you have to put the onus on the player who has to take responsibilities for their own actions.

[Angelino]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

This fanbase needs to demand higher standards from upper management. It’s been nearly 30 years now where we’ve only been out of the 1st round twice. That has to be as bad as it gets. Sutter era gave us some decent go hockey, but too many disappointments. Without Kipper, we weren’t a playoff team. He covered up for a lot of Sutter’s mistakes.

Agree, it’s sad to see the Calgary fan base accept a culture of mediocrity and losing. I feel sorry for fans who don’t know that this used to be a proud franchise not just a running joke or first round road kill each year.

Fans at the dome should rip into the team when they are humiliated on home ice each night. Not sit quietly, stunned and apathetic. Mediocre upper management, mediocre talent acquisition, mediocre players, mediocre results. The franchise has been a disgrace for the most part for the last few decades. It seems the best this group can hope for is to scrape into the first round and get their doors blown off by a professional organization. Embarrassing.

These are just the opinions of a frustrated life long Flames fan.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Angelino

Agree, it’s sad to see the Calgary fan base accept a culture of mediocrity and losing. I feel sorry for fans who don’t know that this used to be a proud franchise not just a running joke or first round road kill each year.

Fans at the dome should rip into the team when they are humiliated on home ice each night. Not sit quietly, stunned and apathetic. Mediocre upper management, mediocre talent acquisition, mediocre players, mediocre results. The franchise has been a disgrace for the most part for the last few decades. It seems the best this group can hope for is to scrape into the first round and get their doors blown off by a professional organization. Embarrassing.

These are just the opinions of a frustrated life long Flames fan.

well, it has been 30 years since they were a regularly successful team

[Angelino]

Originally Posted by stone hands

well, it has been 30 years since they were a regularly successful team

That’s way too long to wait for something good to happen. I used to blame the lack of a salary cap, now it’s just horrible management and questionable decision making by those in power. I also feel sick when I hear announcers say they feel bad for the players, staff, etc. They should feel bad for the fans wasting their money to watch Stockton+ at the AncientDome. Calgary and their fans deserve better.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The Flames style of play is terrible. Players were brought in to augment that style of play.

Get faster more skilled players. Play a more skillful style (play in the middle of the ice, use speed instead of the mucking it up along the boards and the default 'get pucks deep' style they currently play) like the good teams (NSH, WPG, TBL, BOS, TOR etc) play.

Get the defence activated into the attack.

Treliving has seemingly embraced this boring style (coaches hired, players brought in). Bill Parcell's used to say:

You are what you are until you change.