Has the USA finally had enough of Israel's foot dragging and obstruction?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Why don't you tell us who was claiming that Israel is the cause of all the terrorist attacks? Please explain.

Haha, who?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

Actually, drinking alcohol in any of the aforementioned countries is entirely acceptable in bars, clubs, and licensed restaurants. Some of those countries produce alcoholic beverages. There's a nice ale out of the West Bank. So is wearing a tank top and shorts (moreso than the alcohol, really). I really mean no disrespect in saying so, but you clearly are not aware of how things are in those countries, particularly in the urban centres. My ex lives in Amman right now and based on the pictures she's sent me she doesn't dress much differently now than she dressed here. If you are under the impression that wearing hijab is any sort of requirement in any of those countries you are hilariously off-mark. Especially in regard to Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, and Lebanon. Gay people are still struggling for their rights in the most developed of countries, and even with their rights are regularly harrassed and discriminated against. Having lived in several of the countries I've mentioned, gayness is quite openly acknowledged, and it can be well-known that someone is gay and for that person to happily function in society. My mom's haridresser in Oman was a gay Lebanese guy who ran the salon with his partner. In Dubai there are numerous gay bars and clubs, same applies to Amman and Beirut and Casablanca. It is certainly not an ideal situation for gay Arabs (specifically Muslims, Christian Arabs tend to be more tolerant of homosexuality) at all, but it's not Saudi Arabia, either.

All that said, I don't mean to discount what Israel has achieved, nor to say that it is 'worse' than the countries I mentioned. But given the choice between living in Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Lebanon, or Oman, and living in Israel, I would most assuredly pick one of the former choices. And given the choice between living in the UAE (except for Abu Dhabi), Egypt, Syria, or Algeria, and Israel, I would choose Israel. The essential point is, I really don't think, based on fairly intimate personal experience, that Israel is as clearly 'better' than various Arab countries as a lot of people assume is the case.

Two Britons have been sentenced to a month's imprisonment for indecency after a local woman took objection to them kissing in Dubai restaurant.

"We kissed each other on the cheek as a greeting, nothing more,” Mr Najafi told Judge Aysar Fouad. Miss Adams pointed at her cheek to show where contact had taken place.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...estaurant.html

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Haha, who?

It was you. So why don't you quit dancing around and explain why you think what you think? Is Israel the cause of 911? Is Israel the cause of that shoe bomber? Why don't you tell us what you think about the creation of Israel?

Why don't you tell us why you are so passionate about the subject?

[Table 5]

Wow, I'm beginning to think that whoever called you an idiot before was right. Show me one place where I said Israel is "the cause of all terrorist attacks". You seriously need to take some reading comprehension lessons.

Btw, I'm passionate about this because clearly I'm a jew hating anti-semite nazi. Duh.

[Pastiche]

The bottom line is that the settlement building needs to not only stop but redact to some semblance of previously held borders if there is to be any beginning of a meaningful peace process. By that fact, Israel, is entirely the master of this destiny and is solely responsible for this policy. No amount of terrorists, they hate us, etc. arguments can draw away from that. The fact that Israel is at this point completely unwilling to evaluate it's current policy on settlement building is an implication of their commitment to a peace process at all.

[Pastiche]

The most sympathetic interpretation I can construct of why Israel tends to pull these kinds of stunts is that they feel it to be universally accepted normal bargaining behaviour to stake out a maximalist position before entering into a negotiation. As former American negotiator Dennis Ross once said during an earlier round of negotiations (referring to the Palestinian side), "The souk never closes with you people, does it?" But Israelis still, after all these years, don't seem to recognise that what they may think of as staking out a bargaining position is seen by the other side as evidence that negotiations are futile, because they plan to steal everything in the shop.

As usual, the generally right-winged Economist calls out what Israel is doing.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ..._and_palestine

[amorak]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Wow, I'm beginning to think that whoever called you an idiot before was right. Show me one place where I said Israel is "the cause of all terrorist attacks". You seriously need to take some reading comprehension lessons.

Btw, I'm passionate about this because clearly I'm a jew hating anti-semite nazi. Duh.

I agree - It seems that Nage is so biasedly pro-Israel that anyone with a different view point is slandered as a Jew-hater by him/her.

[amorak]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

As usual, the generally right-winged Economist calls out what Israel is doing.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ..._and_palestine

Good article, I should read the pile of Economists I keep in my office to look Smrt.

[_Q_]

Nage vs. Table5:

Table 5: I completely support Israel's right to defend itself, but I think its good that the US is finally holding Israel accountable for its actions against the Palestinians. I think in the long run it is beneficial to both sides. By the way I love Jews.

Nage: You Jew hating Nazi! Don't you know? All arabs are knuckle dragging, blood thirsty war mongers and should be rounded up and killed! Death to the Arabs! Long live an independant and free Jewish homeland! Long live Judea and Samaria! Elohim akbar!!!

Table 5: um.... Are you ok?

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Nage vs. Table5:

Table 5: I completely support Israel's right to defend itself, but I think its good that the US is finally holding Israel accountable for its actions against the Palestinians. I think in the long run it is beneficial to both sides. By the way I love Jews.

Nage: You Jew hating Nazi! Don't you know? All arabs are knuckle dragging, blood thirsty war mongers and should be rounded up and killed! Death to the Arabs! Long live an independant and free Jewish homeland! Long live Judea and Samaria! Elohim akbar!!!

Table 5: um.... Are you ok?

Wave the checkered flag it's officially over.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

The bottom line is that the settlement building needs to not only stop but redact to some semblance of previously held borders if there is to be any beginning of a meaningful peace process. By that fact, Israel, is entirely the master of this destiny and is solely responsible for this policy. No amount of terrorists, they hate us, etc. arguments can draw away from that. The fact that Israel is at this point completely unwilling to evaluate it's current policy on settlement building is an implication of their commitment to a peace process at all.

What a load of crap.

Why should Israel even be willing to sit down at the table if the terrorist attacks aren't going to stop? I know I wouldn't.

IMO, this is how it happens. Rocket are shot at Tel Aviv. Israel retaliates, sometimes with poor military decisions. Their survival and 'I don't give a crap what the rest of the world thinks' instinct kicks in and they do what Israel does to protect their own country. People start bitching that Israel went too far, granted sometimes they do, but these same people ignore the sirens going off numerous times per day. Or, if they don't IGNORE that FACT, they tend to overlook or forget it. Then the bitching and moaning and foot stomping regarding Israel starts, often followed by the terrorists complaining like a bunch of little girls, and everyone overlooks the fact that Israel is acting based on surviving.

Again, its a different world over there. We have it good here in our corner offices, fancy cars and condos.

Its a whole different ballgame when you're constantly in a fight to survive.

As for the aid to Israel. 84 billion is the best investment the US ever made. Israel has given the 'free' world a lot of good things, and I for one hope they continue doing what they do.

[Flash Walken]

I'd pay $84 billion for ICQ.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Azure

As for the aid to Israel. 84 billion is the best investment the US ever made. Israel has given the 'free' world a lot of good things, and I for one hope they continue doing what they do.

Well, I think that's debatable. I'm all for helping out democratic allies, but something tells me that reinvesting a bigger chunk of that 84 billion into the American people (known for being pretty inventive themselves) would have produced some pretty great results too.

Israel has given us some great talent for sure though. Just last week I was at an Itzhak Perlman concert, and man that guy can play! (Don't worry Nage, I was just there to scope out the enemy).

Then again hard to say what that 84 billion dollars went to.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Nage vs. Table5

Haha, well, I didn't venture in here to get into that type of argument, but it sure seems to have turned that way...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Well, I think that's debatable. I'm all for helping out democratic allies, but something tells me that reinvesting a bigger chunk of that 84 billion into the American people (known for being pretty inventive themselves) would have produced some pretty great results too.

Israel has given us some great talent for sure though. Just last week I was at an Itzhak Perlman concert, and man that guy can play! (Don't worry Nage, I was just there to scope out the enemy).

Then again hard to say what that 84 billion dollars went to.

It probably went towards military stuff. Or if they paid in cash the government invested it in other things.

Israel is a flouring democracy with an incredible economy considering how small the country is. 84 billion is a small price to pay to help them along.

Plus, its not like the US is going to miss 84 billion. I'd be more concerned about the billions that went missing in Iraq during the reconstruction than I am with the 84 billion that went into Israel.

Iraq is another good example. Horrible decision to invade, followed by a bunch of stupid policies after, but hindsight is 20/20, and despite all the money the US basically threw away, investing into that country will be beneficial down the road. I doubt Iraq is going to be giving anyone any trouble in the near future.

What they will do is provide some SORT of democracy for the people in the Middle East to look up too. Maybe it can be a good catalyst for change.

[mykalberta]

Ever since I stopped caring about that region my life has become alot happier.

Thank you Bin Laden for directing my attention elsewhere.

My only regret about that region is that the wonderful country of Lebanon has been caught up in that shatstorm so much so that I wish would go back there for another vacation but I likely will never go back.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Azure

What they will do is provide some SORT of democracy for the people in the Middle East to look up too. Maybe it can be a good catalyst for change.

Hey, here's hoping...would be nice to get something for our trillion or three, ha.

[FlamingStuffedTiger]

Originally Posted by Azure

What a load of crap.

Why should Israel even be willing to sit down at the table if the terrorist attacks aren't going to stop? I know I wouldn't.

IMO, this is how it happens. Rocket are shot at Tel Aviv. Israel retaliates, sometimes with poor military decisions. Their survival and 'I don't give a crap what the rest of the world thinks' instinct kicks in and they do what Israel does to protect their own country. People start bitching that Israel went too far, granted sometimes they do, but these same people ignore the sirens going off numerous times per day. Or, if they don't IGNORE that FACT, they tend to overlook or forget it. Then the bitching and moaning and foot stomping regarding Israel starts, often followed by the terrorists complaining like a bunch of little girls, and everyone overlooks the fact that Israel is acting based on surviving.

I am having a hard time seeing how this can be used to justify continued expansion of the settlements though.

[Pastiche]

The bottom line is that the only peaceful way out of the Israel-Palestine issue and the larger issues of Islamic based terrorism against Western states is either two states for Israelis and Palestinians or one federal democratic (not theocratic) state encompassing both people. The latter will not happen. So if you want to eventually stop the violence you need an official government and rights for the Palestinian people alongside Israel.

Unfortunately, what Israel is doing right now is actively undermining that effort through expansionist policies. The time to negotiate statehood and boundaries cannot possibly happen when that state is under direct physical erosion from the party you're trying to negotiate with. It has little to do with terrorists. Terrorists are a side-effect of the breakdown in the negotiating system. As highlighted in that article I posted, the main intifadas occur when the negotiating apparatus fails. The apparatus has failed because, more often than not, Israel poisons the well.

The key factor in this situation is that either you believe that Israel's occupation of the west bank is illegal or you believe that it is not. The world is almost unanimous in its determination that the occupationof palestinian territory is not legal. If that's the case then the party in the wrong needs to be the first mover on conciliation.

Conversely, if hypothetically the Palestinians are able to convincingly demonstrate that they have removed their capacity to conduct terrorist attacks, and do this first, why would Israel then concede the territory? They remove the threat and eat the cake.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by FlamingStuffedTiger

I am having a hard time seeing how this can be used to justify continued expansion of the settlements though.

Its not. Like I said Israel often makes poor political/military decisions.