Has the USA finally had enough of Israel's foot dragging and obstruction?

[jammies]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I heard that the richest man on the Forbes list is a Mexican. Wont be long before we're all forced to wear sombreros and play the maracas.

Hey, if mandatory siestas and spicy food are also in the offing, I am willing to act as a fifth columnist for our new Mexican overlords.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I don't think Arabs believe that Jews have no business in the region, but rather having their own independent state on land that used to be majority Arab. Also to many Arabs Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity and therefore does not deserve it's own independent nation. It has nothing to do with pre-WW2 Germany style antisemitism. Jews lived fairly peacefully amongst Muslims and Christians for centuries before the creation of the State of Israel. There are still many Jewish communities living in North Africa and the Middle East at relative peace with their Muslim and Christian neighbours.

This is really unbelievable, actually.

Yes, Judaism is a religion and Israel is Jewish State. Israel's 22 neighbors are not secular states; however. Ironically, you condemn the one religious state that is actually tolerant, while giving a pass to all the 7th century knuckle-dragging theocracies.

Appeasing the terrorists didn't work in 2005 when Israel pulled out of Gaza. Neither the Western Media nor the Arab world were satisfied. The goal of the terrorists isn't peace, its driving the JEWS into the sea.

But we've had this discussion in the last thread, right? And the one before that. You'll be the first to admit you're not antisemitic (of course), but your writings demonstrate otherwise.

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by bcb

This is really unbelievable, actually.

Yes, Judaism is a religion and Israel is Jewish State. Israel's 22 neighbors are not secular states; however. Ironically, you condemn the one religious state that is actually tolerant, while giving a pass to all the 7th century knuckle-dragging theocracies.

Appeasing the terrorists didn't work in 2005 when Israel pulled out of Gaza. Neither the Western Media nor the Arab world were satisfied. The goal of the terrorists isn't peace, its driving the JEWS into the sea.

But we've had this discussion in the last thread, right? And the one before that. You'll be the first to admit you're not antisemitic (of course), but your writings demonstrate otherwise.

I love how quick everyone is to denounce anti-semitism (with cause), while making equally appalling generalizations and comments on the Arab world and Arab people.

Of course, it's socially acceptable to hate Arabs, so that's different. I was not really aware that Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Oman, and the UAE were knuckle-dragging 7th century theocracies, but I guess I'm horribly wrong. Many of those countries are 'Muslim' in the same sense as the USA is 'Christian'. Would we not agree that the USA is a secular democracy? Unfortunately with a couple of exceptions those countries are not democracies, but hey, yay for American puppet regimes. Oman stands out because being a dictatorship has worked wonderfully for it, but it's also, guess what, not a puppet regime.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by bcb

This is really unbelievable, actually.

Yes, Judaism is a religion and Israel is Jewish State. Israel's 22 neighbors are not secular states; however. Ironically, you condemn the one religious state that is actually tolerant, while giving a pass to all the 7th century knuckle-dragging theocracies.

Appeasing the terrorists didn't work in 2005 when Israel pulled out of Gaza. Neither the Western Media nor the Arab world were satisfied. The goal of the terrorists isn't peace, its driving the JEWS into the sea.

But we've had this discussion in the last thread, right? And the one before that. You'll be the first to admit you're not antisemitic (of course), but your writings demonstrate otherwise.

I don't know what kind of history you guys have, but nothing in what you quoted even remotely resembles anti-semitism.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

I love how quick everyone is to denounce anti-semitism (with cause), while making equally appalling generalizations and comments on the Arab world and Arab people.

Of course, it's socially acceptable to hate Arabs, so that's different. I was not really aware that Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Oman, and the UAE were knuckle-dragging 7th century theocracies, but I guess I'm horribly wrong. Many of those countries are 'Muslim' in the same sense as the USA is 'Christian'. Would we not agree that the USA is a secular democracy? Unfortunately with a couple of exceptions those countries are not democracies, but hey, yay for American puppet regimes. Oman stands out because being a dictatorship has worked wonderfully for it, but it's also, guess what, not a puppet regime.

With all due respect, in many of the above mentioned countries, try:
-drinking alcohol
-wearing a tank top and shorts
-being gay

I shouldn't have stigmatized the entire world as knuckle dragging; however, I think you can agree that Israeli society is more tolerant than a lot of the countries you mentioned.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't know what kind of history you guys have, but nothing in what you quoted even remotely resembles anti-semitism.

There's no history. It's annoying that a certain few posters are quick to (a) post threads condemning Israel for very trivial reasons, and (b) preface their misguided opinions by stating they aren't against Jews.

I really don't know if _Q_ is antisemitic or not, but I don't think his views would make him many friends in the Jewish Community.

[Table 5]

Talking about Israel is like talking to Al Sharpton...no matter the arguement, sooner or later that card is played. Is it really that hard to accept that some people think Israel has flaws? Does questioning their actions really always have to come down to being an anti-semite?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by bcb

There's no history. It's annoying that a certain few posters are quick to (a) post threads condemning Israel for very trivial reasons, and (b) preface their misguided opinions by stating they aren't against Jews.

I really don't know if _Q_ is antisemitic or not, but I don't think his views would make him many friends in the Jewish Community.

I'm sure they wouldn't make him friends in the Jewish community, criticism is typically not welcome, but I don't think that turns into anti-semitism. Playing that card over a legitimate critique is ridiculous.

[moon]

Originally Posted by bcb

With all due respect, in many of the above mentioned countries, try:
-drinking alcohol
-wearing a tank top and shorts
-being gay

I shouldn't have stigmatized the entire world as knuckle dragging; however, I think you can agree that Israeli society is more tolerant than a lot of the countries you mentioned.

I have drank alcohol and worn shorts in 4 of the countries mentioned with no problem at all, why the poster above you have any trouble doing it?

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by bcb

With all due respect, in many of the above mentioned countries, try:
-drinking alcohol
-wearing a tank top and shorts
-being gay

I shouldn't have stigmatized the entire world as knuckle dragging; however, I think you can agree that Israeli society is more tolerant than a lot of the countries you mentioned.

Actually, drinking alcohol in any of the aforementioned countries is entirely acceptable in bars, clubs, and licensed restaurants. Some of those countries produce alcoholic beverages. There's a nice ale out of the West Bank. So is wearing a tank top and shorts (moreso than the alcohol, really). I really mean no disrespect in saying so, but you clearly are not aware of how things are in those countries, particularly in the urban centres. My ex lives in Amman right now and based on the pictures she's sent me she doesn't dress much differently now than she dressed here. If you are under the impression that wearing hijab is any sort of requirement in any of those countries you are hilariously off-mark. Especially in regard to Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, and Lebanon. Gay people are still struggling for their rights in the most developed of countries, and even with their rights are regularly harrassed and discriminated against. Having lived in several of the countries I've mentioned, gayness is quite openly acknowledged, and it can be well-known that someone is gay and for that person to happily function in society. My mom's haridresser in Oman was a gay Lebanese guy who ran the salon with his partner. In Dubai there are numerous gay bars and clubs, same applies to Amman and Beirut and Casablanca. It is certainly not an ideal situation for gay Arabs (specifically Muslims, Christian Arabs tend to be more tolerant of homosexuality) at all, but it's not Saudi Arabia, either.

Israeli society, by which I mean the Ashkenazim who have the most power, is hardly all sunshine like a lot of people suppose. Mizrahi Jews have a 37% higher unemployment rate, lower education rates, and are systematically discriminated against. An Iraqi-Jewish academic from the States wrote that there was several Jews in the Iraqi 'parliament' when Israel was founded, but that it took decades for an 'Arab Jew' to become part of the Israeli one. There is a similar attitude towards Sephardic Jews. All in all, for much of Israel's existence, there was a strongly disparaging attitude towards the attitudes, customs, languages, and history of non-European Jewry. It is still frowned upon to marry a Mizrahi or Sephardic Jew. The Ethiopians are subject to quite public demonstrations of racism (including the making of monkey noises at them- I personally witnessed this three times in one day!). Finally, the Arab-Israelis (i.e. Christian and Muslim Arab citizens of Israel) are the subject of daily harrassment, abuse, employment discrimination, etc. KILL ALL ARABS graffiti is not an irregular sight, and is even more regular in West Bank settlements. The fans of soccer team Beitar Jerusalem regularly chant DEATH TO ARABS. People, even if religiously Jewish, risk being beaten in the streets if they show signs of embracing Arab culture or history. What would count as hate speech on our radio is the norm in Israel.

All that said, I don't mean to discount what Israel has achieved, nor to say that it is 'worse' than the countries I mentioned. But given the choice between living in Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Lebanon, or Oman, and living in Israel, I would most assuredly pick one of the former choices. And given the choice between living in the UAE (except for Abu Dhabi), Egypt, Syria, or Algeria, and Israel, I would choose Israel. The essential point is, I really don't think, based on fairly intimate personal experience, that Israel is as clearly 'better' than various Arab countries as a lot of people assume is the case.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

Israeli society, by which I mean the Ashkenazim who have the most power, is hardly all sunshine like a lot of people suppose. Mizrahi Jews have a 37% higher unemployment rate, lower education rates, and are systematically discriminated against. An Iraqi-Jewish academic from the States wrote that there was several Jews in the Iraqi 'parliament' when Israel was founded, but that it took decades for an 'Arab Jew' to become part of the Israeli one. There is a similar attitude towards Sephardic Jews. All in all, for much of Israel's existence, there was a strongly disparaging attitude towards the attitudes, customs, languages, and history of non-European Jewry. It is still frowned upon to marry a Mizrahi or Sephardic Jew. The Ethiopians are subject to quite public demonstrations of racism (including the making of monkey noises at them- I personally witnessed this three times in one day!). Finally, the Arab-Israelis (i.e. Christian and Muslim Arab citizens of Israel) are the subject of daily harrassment, abuse, employment discrimination, etc. KILL ALL ARABS graffiti is not an irregular sight, and is even more regular in West Bank settlements. The fans of soccer team Beitar Jerusalem regularly chant DEATH TO ARABS. People, even if religiously Jewish, risk being beaten in the streets if they show signs of embracing Arab culture or history. What would count as hate speech on our radio is the norm in Israel.

This is utter BS. Cherry picking of isolated facts and exaggerating them until they are nonsense. Israel is truly a hell on earth for Arabs....except for the fact they have more political and personal rights than any Arab elsewhere in the world.

Gee doorknobbery by soccer fans? Try some European games when a black player has the ball!

A$$holes on the radio.....

Trash that makes fun of peoples ethnicity and colour? That never happens here!

Snobs??? Ever been to Toronto or Vancouver and told them you are from Alberta? Get the banjo out!!!!

A history of discrimination.....Canada and Canadians have never done that!


Honestly, every democracy didn't start out with unicorns and fairies and chocolate covered strawberries everywhere. What you described could be cut and pasted onto any of them.

Yes I am absolutely sure that Israel has some major skeletons in its past and is definitely not a squeaky clean love everywhere land of OZ today. That said, compared to ANY Arab, Palestinian or Muslim state it stands heads and shoulders over them.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by moon

I have drank alcohol and worn shorts in 4 of the countries mentioned with no problem at all, why the poster above you have any trouble doing it?

nm

[amorak]

Why don't we leave them alone, let them fight it out and then smoke that whacky Arab tabbacy with which ever one wins?

[CokeMachineGlow]

Jews are intelligent hard working people? So good stereo types are ok? If I say asians are good at math can I let that slide too?

Israel embarrassed the usa, the country that props up that state. Billions each year in money for defense, and they spit in the face of their greatest ally. Foolish. For the record I support Israel; they share my western values

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by HOZ

except for the fact they have more political and personal rights than any Arab elsewhere in the world.

Originally Posted by HOZ

That said, compared to ANY Arab, Palestinian or Muslim state it stands heads and shoulders over them.

absolutely not. That is, admittedly, only my opinion, but it's certainly more valid than that of someone who has not been to and lived in those countries. I find Israel better than some of the Arab countries and worse than others. I don't think it's anywhere near as clear-cut as you or others make it out to be.

And yes, I cherry-picked things that were relevant to the point I was making. If someone were to ask me to defend Israel I would have plenty of good things to say about it. As I said, none of that is to discredit anything Israel has accomplished. Just that I don't think it's 'head and shoulders' above numerous Arab states. Oh, sure, it is definitely head and shoulders above Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, and a few others, and a cut above the states I previously said I would rather live in Israel than, but it is simply my belief, based on my experience, that there is much about Israel I find objectionable, outside of any larger political notions about who the land belongs to, and despite the numerous things I find objectionable about Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Lebanon, or Oman, I would rather live in any of those countries than in Israel.

Better than any Muslim state, sure. With few exceptions, I'd say a secular state (even if influenced by religion) is preferable to a theocracy.

[amorak]

Originally Posted by bcb

This is really unbelievable, actually.

Yes, Judaism is a religion and Israel is Jewish State. Israel's 22 neighbors are not secular states; however. Ironically, you condemn the one religious state that is actually tolerant, while giving a pass to all the 7th century knuckle-dragging theocracies.

Appeasing the terrorists didn't work in 2005 when Israel pulled out of Gaza. Neither the Western Media nor the Arab world were satisfied. The goal of the terrorists isn't peace, its driving the JEWS into the sea.

But we've had this discussion in the last thread, right? And the one before that. You'll be the first to admit you're not antisemitic (of course), but your writings demonstrate otherwise.

So you call all Arabs "knuckle draggers", a racist comment, and then proceed to call Pyramid, who's brought out a very valid point without resorting to anything I'd say even begins to approach racist, and you call him/her Antisemitic.

I'd say you're a racist, and Pyramid has a different viewpoint than a racist.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by amorak

Why don't we leave them alone, let them fight it out and then smoke that whacky Arab tabbacy with which ever one wins?

Have you ever read 'The Chrysalids' by John Wyndham?

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by amorak

So you call all Arabs "knuckle draggers", a racist comment, and then proceed to call Pyramid, who's brought out a very valid point without resorting to anything I'd say even begins to approach racist, and you call him/her Antisemitic.

I'd say you're a racist, and Pyramid has a different viewpoint than a racist.

He did not call me an anti-semite. It would be funny if I were an anti-semite, considering many of my extended family are still Jews, and my close family were Jews until the early 1900s.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by amorak

So you call all Arabs "knuckle draggers", a racist comment, and then proceed to call Pyramid, who's brought out a very valid point without resorting to anything I'd say even begins to approach racist, and you call him/her Antisemitic.

I'd say you're a racist, and Pyramid has a different viewpoint than a racist.

Here's what I said:
"7th century knuckle-dragging theocracies. "

That lays blame on the country, NOT the people.

Furthermore, I was not referencing Pyramid!

[bcb]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

He did not call me an anti-semite. It would be funny if I were an anti-semite, considering many of my extended family are still Jews, and my close family were Jews until the early 1900s.

At least somebody gets it