Idiot unions in Toronto

[Deelow]

Even more impressive is the liquor store workers that think the province will shut down if they strike...I see they backed off last night after realizing no one cares. Honestly you work at a liquor store, how much do you think you're worth?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

As someone who has to deal with and hire for a unionized environment, I'd say that there are a lot of good things about having a union and there are some that are bad.

Cons:

- The Union in a lot of cases protects the garbage in the company. Certain employees slip through the cracks and take advantage of the union rules to their advantage. They'd be out of a job normally with any other company.
- Seniority. There should be some leeway and adjustment in this.
- Just too fing hard to fire someone.

...

I know that in my circumstance, a single bad employee who takes advantage of the union system (even breaks a few rules) can really bring down the entire team of people. They've got to make it easier to get rid of the bad employees.

As far as I am concerned, this is the reason why most unions are viewed as bad.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Fair enough. I've been a non-volunteer member of a couple unions and I know that is true.



This is what I don't get -- they "use their leverage" and everyone bashes them for doing it.

Isn't that what everyone does? Don't we all do what we can do to get our employers to pay us as much as possible? I do.

If the employees are getting "salaries and benefits totally out of line", whose fault is that?

If some guy is getting paid 40 bucks an hour to install a sunroof on a Yukon, what has he done wrong? Someone is (or was) willing to pay him that rate and he takes it.

Someone was willing to pay him that only after extortion like tactics were used to pry it out of their hands. Sure the employer can say no, but that's simply not a feasible option for a lot of employers. The employer gets to choose between two bad situations, overpay or shut down for an extended period of time.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Why can teachers screw around, not try their best, not give a crap, be lazy, disrespectful, etc. and NOT be held accountable? If unions held their employees more accountable, people wouldn't have an issue with unions, but the abuses, the thousands of examples that ALL of us know about growing up watching union employees, are what trigger these types of anti-union responses.

If teaching is such an easy job where you can be paid so well and get so much time off to screw around, not try your best, be lazy, not give a crap, and be disrespectful all while getting away with it due to a complete lack of accountability ... why aren't you a teacher?

Originally Posted by psicodude

I work for a school board here in Calgary as one of the hundred or so non-union employees. We recently found out that everyone is getting a 5.99% raise in September, as part of the ATA negotiated contract (everyone gets the same raise as the teachers). I would never turn down a raise, but I will admit that I could not believe we are getting a fairly large raise paid for by the Alberta tax payer....who, coincidently, was probably laid off or took a massive pay cut this year.

I just thought I would lend some credibility to the arguement that the union could not care less about the company...or in this case, your child's education.

As to your comments - and I knew they'd somehow be brought up - first of all, last I looked it wasn't a 5.99% raise for us as teachers - it may be splitting hairs but it is at least 20% less than that figure. Secondly, I refuse to feel bad about getting a raise - which our government agreed to as part of our collective bargaining. Maybe if you were a little more informed or willing to share the facts your post might be a little more credible. Here are some facts:

- According to our new collective bargaining agreement, my raises/lack thereof are decided upon using the Average Weekly Earnings statistic for earnings in our province. Teachers did not say "we demand a raise". The change in our wages was/will be just the same as the average change in the province.
- The raise then is based on changes to the AWE over the course of 12 months.
- The amount my raise was decided upon in March of this year - so there was still what - 6 months of ecoonomic growth behind it?
- That means (small comfort? I don't know) that I will likely get no raise next year and probably in the forseeable future after that. In the interest of full disclosure, no, I can't receive a pay cut as a result of AWE going down, the worst I can do is a 0% raise.

To say that the ATA doesn't care about children's education is laughable. Say what you want about other unions but I get my back up - and rightly so - when anyone tries to paint my entire profession or those who represent me as only in it for themselves.

[Cowperson]

There's a constant ebb and flow between unions and ownership.

Bad management causes strong unions (formation of the NHLPA, the ouster of Alan Eagleson) while strong unions will inevitably yield an increasingly entrenched management (the destruction of Bob Goodenow).

Unions do have a place in modern economic system but they often end up being inflexible and monolithic, unable to adapt to the legitimate needs of ownership in perilous economic times.

It's a symbiotic relationship.

Workers need the concentration of capital provided by entrepreneurs while the latter, of course, need people to employ their strategy for profit.

It's absolutely absurd that workers in Toronto would be able to retain, at this particular moment, 18 sick days a year, accumulating through to retirement. If they get hammered because they're too inflexible and can't adapt to the current environment, they'll have had it coming. The problem for these workers is that their employers are their 5 million fellow citizens of Toronto.

Cowperson

[MarchHare]

This is what I don't get -- they "use their leverage" and everyone bashes them for doing it.

Isn't that what everyone does? Don't we all do what we can do to get our employers to pay us as much as possible? I do.

If the employees are getting "salaries and benefits totally out of line", whose fault is that?

If some guy is getting paid 40 bucks an hour to install a sunroof on a Yukon, what has he done wrong? Someone is (or was) willing to pay him that rate and he takes it.

Yes, everyone uses their leverage to try to maximize their salaries. Honest employees do it by trying to be the best employee they can be, improving their productivity, enchancing their education, and setting an example for their coworkers to follow. Union workers do it by walking off the job en masse, verbally and physically intimidating their non-union coworkers (and their families!), vandalizing their property, organizing public boycott's of their employer's products, etc.

If I did any of the things some (not all, thankfully) union members do during a strike, I'd be fired immediately -- and rightly so. Union members, on the other hand, are protected and have the power to not only get away with their workplace terrorism but are often rewarded for it when management makes concessions.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Yes, everyone uses their leverage to try to maximize their salaries. Honest employees do it by trying to be the best employee they can be, improving their productivity, enchancing their education, and setting an example for their coworkers to follow. Union workers do it by walking off the job en masse, verbally and physically intimidating their non-union coworkers (and their families!), vandalizing their property, organizing public boycott's of their employer's products, etc.

If I did any of the things some (not all, thankfully) union members do during a strike, I'd be fired immediately -- and rightly so. Union members, on the other hand, are protected and have the power to not only get away with their workplace terrorism but are often rewarded for it when management makes concessions.

Sadly any of the stuff you mentioned gets wiped clean as a part of a back to work agreement when a strike is over.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Isn't this called capitalism? If you can't afford to pay your employees, you go out of business. That's the deal.

Yeah, but capitalism also includes paying people what they are worth.

Which means that people working at A&W flipping burgers probably shouldn't have a union, because they're not worth more than $10/h.

[psicodude]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

As to your comments - and I knew they'd somehow be brought up - first of all, last I looked it wasn't a 5.99% raise for us as teachers - it may be splitting hairs but it is at least 20% less than that figure. Secondly, I refuse to feel bad about getting a raise - which our government agreed to as part of our collective bargaining. Maybe if you were a little more informed or willing to share the facts your post might be a little more credible. Here are some facts:

- According to our new collective bargaining agreement, my raises/lack thereof are decided upon using the Average Weekly Earnings statistic for earnings in our province. Teachers did not say "we demand a raise". The change in our wages was/will be just the same as the average change in the province.
- The raise then is based on changes to the AWE over the course of 12 months.
- The amount my raise was decided upon in March of this year - so there was still what - 6 months of ecoonomic growth behind it?
- That means (small comfort? I don't know) that I will likely get no raise next year and probably in the forseeable future after that. In the interest of full disclosure, no, I can't receive a pay cut as a result of AWE going down, the worst I can do is a 0% raise.

To say that the ATA doesn't care about children's education is laughable. Say what you want about other unions but I get my back up - and rightly so - when anyone tries to paint my entire profession or those who represent me as only in it for themselves.

Somehow I knew a teacher would respond.

Fact: We are getting a 5.99% raise. I am looking at the memo right now, and it is very clear.

Fact: It doesn't matter how or why we are getting it. Come Septermber 5th, we are making 5.99% more in salary.

Fact: That money has to come out of a deficit budget, both for the province and the board. This will means cuts (in the millions of dollars) somewhere else.

Fact: The average taxpayer in this province has had to suffer this year with either no raise, cutbacks, or even being laid off.

Fact: The union (I didn't say teachers) does not care about any of the above. They just care about getting their members as much of a raise as they can. Screw the taxpayer. The bolded part of your post, however, leads me to believe that you think the same.

The point of my post had nothing to do with teachers specifically. The point was that the average (non-union) employee is required to make sacrifices during the lean times alongside the company they work for. The union, however, doesn't give a damn about the company or anyone else that may suffer as a result of their negotiations.

[troutman]

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights.
"The oaks are just too greedy;
We will make them give us light."
Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw.

[Dion]

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by psicodude

Fact: The average taxpayer in this province has had to suffer this year with either no raise, cutbacks, or even being laid off.

Fact: The union (I didn't say teachers) does not care about any of the above. They just care about getting their members as much of a raise as they can. Screw the taxpayer. The bolded part of your post, however, leads me to believe that you think the same.

The point of my post had nothing to do with teachers specifically. The point was that the average (non-union) employee is required to make sacrifices during the lean times alongside the company they work for. The union, however, doesn't give a damn about the company or anyone else that may suffer as a result of their negotiations.

I can't speak for all union employees but being a member of the union for the city of calgary is a tough situation. When our agreements are negotiated near an election the aldermen tend to give the city negotiators very little to work with so as to not have any tax increases in any upcoming budgets. There have been several years when we didn't get any increases to speak of which sucks when you don't even get cost of living increases. During the 'big boom' we were getting 3% increases annually and the cost of living was increasing nearly 4.6% annually. The fact is that people will always complain when civic employees get a raise because it directly affects their taxes.

[mykalberta]

Do City of Calgary union employees get a pension? Or is it RRSP contribution with the City matching up to 6-9%. That is what is at most private companies. I have always wondered why union employees expect the same salary/bonus structure as private employees but yet they get far and away the better pension/benefits etc. Also, what is the vacation/overtime sturcture at the City. I dont know alot of other places, but I am salary and get no overtime pay - I do get 1.5-2.0 TOIL but I would normally rather take the pay. I know a few people who have tried to get me to come over to the city (not lately with the hiring "freeze") and while they didnt get the bonus that I got (no guaranteed) to speak of, the overtime/vacation/benefits package is what made me at least think about leaving. Also, for cost of living increases - those arent mandatory where I work. In 3/5 years I have worked we have got raises, but that mostly has to do with the depressed salary levels (w/o bonus) that we have.

In Ontario, are there private liquor stores or no? Strange that they wouldnt privatize that market. Why in 2009 does the provice need to be in the buisness of selling alcohol.

Is the garbage strike still on, its not on the CTV or CBC front page portal anymore. Just wondering what happened to the suffering employees with their 18 sick days I have always wondered why cities bother having alot of that stuff in house. Things like garbage collection, grass cutting, etc etc etc. Why not privatize that and be rid of the the hassle. In a city like Calgary if you are worried about competition you could easily divide the city into a couple of sections and have different companies bid on those sections. If the city is able to do it cheaper, then they can create a company and bid. However unlike the recycling collection the City would need to make the rules and contract clear for the bidding process. The Recylcing collection bidding process in this city was so corrupt that it makes me sick.

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Do City of Calgary union employees get a pension? Or is it RRSP contribution with the City matching up to 6-9%. That is what is at most private companies. I have always wondered why union employees expect the same salary/bonus structure as private employees but yet they get far and away the better pension/benefits etc. Also, what is the vacation/overtime sturcture at the City. I dont know alot of other places, but I am salary and get no overtime pay - I do get 1.5-2.0 TOIL but I would normally rather take the pay. I know a few people who have tried to get me to come over to the city (not lately with the hiring "freeze") and while they didnt get the bonus that I got (no guaranteed) to speak of, the overtime/vacation/benefits package is what made me at least think about leaving. Also, for cost of living increases - those arent mandatory where I work. In 3/5 years I have worked we have got raises, but that mostly has to do with the depressed salary levels (w/o bonus) that we have.

We pay into a pension plan monthly and the city matches our contributions.
We do get great benefits with regards to dental and health. We have a couple of options on benefit plans. One that the employee doesn't pay into, one that we pay a small bi-monthly fee and the last that is pretty comprehensive and the bi-monthly is a bit higher. It covers pretty much anything.
We don't get any bonus's at all but there is a non-union section of the city that does. They are management exempt or the higher up staff like division leaders, managers, and that sort of staff.
Overtime is paid at double time or bankable for time off (also as double time).
Last benefit is the vacation which I have found to be pretty typical of the private sector until you have been here 10+ years. Then you get into 5, 6 and even 7 weeks of vacation.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by Rhettzky

Last benefit is the vacation which I have found to be pretty typical of the private sector until you have been here 10+ years. Then you get into 5, 6 and even 7 weeks of vacation.

[mykalberta]

Strange, they told me the pension wasnt RRSP based, it was a lifer - that makes that job way less attactive. Thier "bonus" last year was $1500. They told me it wasnt a bonus, it was just what they got at the end of the year for whatever- they call it a bonus but its not. Where I work the max vacation maxes out at 5 weeks after 15 years I think - not sure, I am still a loely 5 year pleb with 3 weeks

When I was thinking about moving over we went through the Salary structure. Basically his salary (inlucding what they called a bonus) was 11K more than my base salary (bonus not guaranteed). Basically we went through 5 years of salary, for the first 2 years he kills me by more than 22K (no bonus first year, second year 2K bonus, he was getting salary increases as I was not). However I made that up after 4 years, and after 5 I kill his salary by almost 12K (mostly due to large bonuses in Y4 and Y5 based on balance sheet projections that were very good - I work IT so there isnt a sales bonus figure, so we get lumped in with Corporate bonus structure ).

I consider my job to be very safe unless we were to get bought out by a competitor - unlike for at least a while now. I guess the option would be City = Guarantted salary and job security vs Private = Higher possible salary with variable questionable job security.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

If teaching is such an easy job where you can be paid so well and get so much time off to screw around, not try your best, be lazy, not give a crap, and be disrespectful all while getting away with it due to a complete lack of accountability ... why aren't you a teacher?

Wow. Easy tiger.

First of all, I never said teachers are "paid so well", not sure where that came from.

Second of all, my generalization was targetting the bad teachers. Those teachers that could care less because you pretty much have to be abusive to get fired. Now there's motivation! Why am I not a teacher? Because I didn't want to be part of a union for one, but for another I don't want to be lazy, not give a crap, and not try my best (the disrespectful part doesn't make sense in my rant last night so I'll leave that out).

Here's a concept, how about not having a union. That way the teachers that teach well and work hard get rewarded, and the lazy-not-give-a-crap teachers get laid off, like the rest of society. Once laid off, maybe these people will realise that putting in an effort does offer up internalized rewards and self fulfillment with the goal to being a better person and a better teacher and improving conditions.

You pretty much answered why I am not a teacher in your own post. There is no way you'll convince me that teachers are held accountable. To who? Angry parent/teacher interview parents?

Meanwhile lets let the union mentality permeate the brain, lets have strikes so kids can have no supervision nor learning for a couple months every 2 years because our collective bargaining agreements can't last longer than a one night stand. Beauty system. What's that? Your a good teacher? Well you get just as much as the brutal teacher. Where's your motivation?

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

If teaching is such an easy job where you can be paid so well and get so much time off to screw around, not try your best, be lazy, not give a crap, and be disrespectful all while getting away with it due to a complete lack of accountability ... why aren't you a teacher?
...

I am in full agreement, nurses and teachers should be paid the same. Same education same pay. No question (personally I think certain teachers deserve more because of there level of responsibility vis a vi teachers).

The simple fact is that your union hasnt been as strong as the nurses union which is why you are getting comparatively screwed.

[Burninator]

Couldn't a company (or government) just fire all the employees on strike, kill the union then hire everyone back as non-union employees? Or is that too cold hearted? I'm sure a majority of the workers would come back. Especially in a time like this with an angered economy I can't imagine there is much demand for garbage collectors outside of working for the city.

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Strange, they told me the pension wasnt RRSP based, it was a lifer - that makes that job way less attactive.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. The pension is not RRSP based. It's run by the LAPP and we contribute to it and the city does as well. If at any time you want to leave the city you can pull your funds. But I don't know about the city paid part of the funds. I do know that before you turn 55 you have a choice to keep it all in there or have it all paid out (city and employee paid portions).