Idiot unions in Toronto

[MarchHare]

It's just that I don't get why unions are so demonized. "Those greedy s are overpaid! They get too many benefits!".

Unions are demonized because they reward seniority rather than hard work or competence. Unions are demonized because they use their leverage to demand (and receive) salaries and benefits totally out of line with the level of education/experience required to do those jobs.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Isn't this called capitalism? If you can't afford to pay your employees, you go out of business. That's the deal.

Or were these people supposed to take less and work in crappy circumstances so the owner could keep his prices down? Nobody else is expected to do that.

Getting rich is a big deal in our society. Rich people are admired for going out there and getting everything they can get. They become famous and everyone claps them on the back for a job well done.

When a few peons get together and try to do exactly that -- get everything they can -- they are the scum of the earth. Idiots. Communists. You name it.

Except for the highly-publicized exceptions (brought up in this thread already), self-made "rich people" are admired for going out there and EARNING everything they can. Big difference.

The few "peons" are most definitely NOT trying to do the same. They are not trying to earn everything they can; they organize for the purposes of extorting the most entitlements possible regardless of the company's position, financially or otherwise. Air Canada, GM, Chrysler, City of Toronto, etc. etc. etc. Parasitic in nature, the antithesis of the entrepreneur.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Strike pay is a pittance. It doesn't come close to making up for the wages striking workers lose.

Management can usually act as replacement workers if a company is desperate enough.

It may not come close but it still provides income for those on the picket line. There's also the fact that striking workers get can get other jobs to suppliment thier incomes while on strike. In 1997 I was involved in a 2 month strike. I was ticked at my union for striking and got another job for the period of time. Never walked the picket line or collected strike pay.

Mangement filling in for striking workers doesn't come close to filling the position of those on the picket line. They have every right to bring in replacemnet workers just like the strikers who took on extra jobs to pay the bills.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Whose fault is that? If I'm making half as much as some other guy doing the exact job, well that's my problem, not the guy making more money.

If the guy who makes more money isn't in a union, we'd all give him a high five. But since he's in a union, he's a maggot.

Those working outside a union have earned that wage they are earning. They are judged and rewarded on their individual merits. Union workers on the other hand get raises regardless of thier work performance. There's no incentive to work hard when the lazy bum working beside you is doing half the work and making the same wage. Unions breed medocracy with workers working to the lowest common demoniator.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by zuluking

Except for the highly-publicized exceptions (brought up in this thread already), self-made "rich people" are admired for going out there and EARNING everything they can. Big difference.

Ah yes, the noble businessman. Beavering away, never taking a shortcut, earning every cent through hard work and resourcefulness. Trustworthy, fair, kind of heart and handsome of face.

A businessman would never try to take advantage of anyone.

Originally Posted by zuluking

The few "peons" are most definitely NOT trying to do the same. They are not trying to earn everything they can; they organize for the purposes of extorting the most entitlements possible regardless of the company's position, financially or otherwise. Air Canada, GM, Chrysler, City of Toronto, etc. etc. etc. Parasitic in nature, the antithesis of the entrepreneur.

They are taking what they can get. Do you think big business works on a different principle?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Dion

Those working outside a union have earned that wage they are earning. They are judged and rewarded on their individual merits. Union workers on the other hand get raises regardless of thier work performance. There's no incentive to work hard when the lazy bum working beside you is doing half the work and making the same wage. Unions breed medocracy with workers working to the lowest common demoniator.

Yup. There rarely is an animal as lazy as a veteran union employee. Try taking pride in doing your job fast and well in a union environment. I guarantee someone will take you aside and tell you to slow down because you are making everyone else look bad.

Unions are demonized because they operate in a world that is not based in reality, breeding and rewarding ineptitude and mediocrity. There is a reason why West Jet is outperforming most of North America's airlines, and I would point directly at the fact that West Jet is not unionized. It's also a big reason, I think, why West Jet's staff cares a hell of a lot more about doing a good job than Air Canada's staff.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Yup. There rarely is an animal as lazy as a veteran union employee. Try taking pride in doing your job fast and well in a union environment. I guarantee someone will take you aside and tell you to slow down because you are making everyone else look bad.

I got that comment on a fair number of occassions. Was told I was making everyone look bad by setting too high a work standard. It wasn't long after that that i got out. Got tired of the BS and politics.

[PsYcNeT]

What about the York university strike last year? The teachers assistants walked out and all classes were cancelled.

All classes.

Cancelled.

For students who are paying 5000$+ for their tuition.

So what happens now? These students that didn't have an accelerated curriculum now must school during the summer months to make up their credits, and in turn have no time to work those oh so necessary summer jobs to get a financial foothold, and will be even more screwed once they're done Uni with higher student loans (because they have to take a summer loan as well) and less money banked.

And the TAs are planning to strike again next year.

Funnily enough, the 50% needed to have a strike didn't even get voted, but all the workers that voted to strike walked out anyway, and there werent enough left to cover their positions.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Isn't this called capitalism? If you can't afford to pay your employees, you go out of business. That's the deal.

True pure capitalism would not allow for unions. Employee can be terminated for any reason at any time, including complaing about wages or trying to organize a union. Its a friggin sandwich shop. Not a Cancer Clinic or a Prison or something.

Or were these people supposed to take less and work in crappy circumstances so the owner could keep his prices down? Nobody else is expected to do that.

The capitalism of which you speak would allow for the employee to find a new job if they don't like the one they are at. Pure capitalism would allow for the business owner to help them on their way (by firing their ass).

Getting rich is a big deal in our society. Rich people are admired for going out there and getting everything they can get. They become famous and everyone claps them on the back for a job well done.

Being "admired for going out there and getting everything they can get" is gluttunous and most certainly not a quality worth celebrating.

Celebrate effort, and ingenuity. Not gluttony.

When a few peons get together and try to do exactly that -- get everything they can -- they are the scum of the earth. Idiots. Communists. You name it.

If you happen to be wealthy, and THIS is what you think of people who have less money than you, you deserve to be punched in the face.

Rich people are so insecure.

[CaramonLS]

As someone who has to deal with and hire for a unionized environment, I'd say that there are a lot of good things about having a union and there are some that are bad.

Pros:

- No BS about hours/raises, you get raises every X number of hours and that's how it is for everyone.
- In a diverse environment with people from every difference background, not everyone feels comfortable or like it is their place to challenge the boss for a raise or call attention to certain issues.
- Scheduling, # of hours - done like clockwork when it is supposed to be done. People know when they are coming into work. I've worked a couple jobs where schedules are up on a very inconsistent basis (sometimes mid week of the week you are supposed to work!). It is a pain in the ass.
- Protects workers rights. Yes, there are certain circumstances where employees really do need to be protected from managers. The Union can be called into support this process.



Cons:

- The Union in a lot of cases protects the garbage in the company. Certain employees slip through the cracks and take advantage of the union rules to their advantage. They'd be out of a job normally with any other company.
- Seniority. There should be some leeway and adjustment in this.
- Just too fing hard to fire someone.


The main problem with Unions is that they don't have the same goals in mind as a company. Their goal is not to make profit and expand the business, but rather simply to protect the rights of workers. They have no incentive to.

I think that in order for Unions to thrive they need something like profit sharing initiatives and bonuses for high quality individuals. I really do believe that the main 'idea' behind the union is a good one, and I do value that goal, but something has to change in the current landscape.

I know that in my circumstance, a single bad employee who takes advantage of the union system (even breaks a few rules) can really bring down the entire team of people. They've got to make it easier to get rid of the bad employees.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by HeartsOfFire

For all the anti-union attitude that reeks in Alberta, I for one would much rather see union workers overpaid than corporate executive fat-cats. Even though this has nothing to do with wages...

Ahh well, sanitation is a dirty job. Obviously not everyone is willing to do it. Maybe that'll change now?

so the people that take all the risk to employ the union workers should not get rewarded for that?

Give me a break and shove that sense of entitlement up you're Jack Layton.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Now sure, if they somehow manage to get so much leverage that they tip the company over, that's bad. But who pays the price for that? They do.

A few do. Taxpayers pay for most. So far we haven't tipped the entire economy, though its been close.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Unions are demonized because they reward seniority rather than hard work or competence. Unions are demonized because they use their leverage to demand (and receive) salaries and benefits totally out of line with the level of education/experience required to do those jobs.

Honestly I'd be fine with all that. Its the fact that whatever they get cannot ever be taken away, no matter how insane, and they steamroll the people they allegedly represent as much as anyone.

I don't care if a garbage worker gets 100k a year with 50 sick days. As long as when people are willing to do it for 80k + 49 sick days the system adjusts. And the garbage workers themselves get to choose whether to be in (pay for) the union or not. Then I know the union really does work for the people they represent, and it doesn't mean they work against me by definition.

[psicodude]

Just to add a little more fuel to this fire...

I work for a school board here in Calgary as one of the hundred or so non-union employees. We recently found out that everyone is getting a 5.99% raise in September, as part of the ATA negotiated contract (everyone gets the same raise as the teachers). I would never turn down a raise, but I will admit that I could not believe we are getting a fairly large raise paid for by the Alberta tax payer....who, coincidently, was probably laid off or took a massive pay cut this year.

I just thought I would lend some credibility to the arguement that the union could not care less about the company...or in this case, your child's education.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by psicodude

Just to add a little more fuel to this fire...

I work for a school board here in Calgary as one of the hundred or so non-union employees. We recently found out that everyone is getting a 5.99% raise in September, as part of the ATA negotiated contract (everyone gets the same raise as the teachers). I would never turn down a raise, but I will admit that I could not believe we are getting a fairly large raise paid for by the Alberta tax payer....who, coincidently, was probably laid off or took a massive pay cut this year.

I just thought I would lend some credibility to the arguement that the union could not care less about the company...or in this case, your child's education.

I was going to bow out from this thread, but this post definitely inspired me to contribute further.

In my opinion, as completely uninformed as it is, I believe that the two most exempt sectors from a pure capitalist model of society would be #1 - Healthcare and #2 - Education. Meaning post-secondary should be free. The greatest investment a society can make is in the brain-power of its future.

I know plenty of people who are in the trades who are fit, sober, and studied. I know plenty of people who are in school who are dumb as s**t. I know plenty of people with 5-10 years school who are miserable.

The people who work in education, to me, are up there with health care workers.

[Mr.Coffee]

Unions are just insane. Stories like the OP's and the one I read in the Globe & Mail yesterday regarding people in their 20's + 30's (I am in this age group) who are "funemployed" and were laid off, perfectly capable of working with jobs available and just refusing to work so that they can instead go and enjoy life whilst- here's the kicker- living off EI in the meantime.

Pretty sure the Industrial Revolution & Urbanization is a couple hundred years behind us. Like everything in life, there must be balance. "Fat Cat executives" need to be held accountable, JUST LIKE UNION WORKERS.

Why can teachers screw around, not try their best, not give a crap, be lazy, disrespectful, etc. and NOT be held accountable? If unions held their employees more accountable, people wouldn't have an issue with unions, but the abuses, the thousands of examples that ALL of us know about growing up watching union employees, are what trigger these types of anti-union responses.

I genuinely think Albertans work harder as a whole than the rest of the country. Maybe this isn't that great, but at least we can be proud of doing something, contributing to society, unlike these bums sitting around apparently hoping they can be sick for 300 days a year. This is ridiculous! Holding a community hostage so you can be sick more? Just think about how ass-backwards and selfish that is.

Accountability is the issue. Something's wrong here.

[Nuje]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Are the unions the ones responsible for making cars that people don't want to buy? I would think that the executive teams should be taking the fall for the issues that domestic car manufacturers are experiencing right now.

Hmm....I'll read the rest of this thread later (and I'm sorry if someone's addressed this already) but yes, unions are partially responsible for having companies sell things they don't want to believe it or not!
The Ford Focus is the only one I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure it's happened on many occasions. It was released in 1998, and was very well received. After being re-designed, with a 2005 model being released world-wide, North America didn't receive the new Focus. Why? It was built on a different platform (shared with the Mazda 3 and Volvo S40), so the factories would have to temporarily close to re-configure. This would cause employees to be temporarily out of work, and either making EI, receiving assistance from Ford, or maybe even both! The UAW said no to this, so instead, we got the same car until 2008, where they redesigned it. Of course, it's still on the old inferior platform, the revisions mainly being body and interior. Because of the unions, North Americans are being sold a 10 year old car with a face-lift, whereas the rest of the world is enjoying something that's 3 years old (and has received absolutely great reviews by everybody!).

I'm not trying to defend American car companies here, as I think they had their big share of screw-ups. The union is a bigger screwup, and while that's their fault for letting them in too, the unions could possibly understand that in a recession, you can't do that kinda junk. I just got increased from 5 sick days a year to 10 BTW. I never even used all 5 when I had 5.

Yup. There rarely is an animal as lazy as a veteran union employee. Try taking pride in doing your job fast and well in a union environment. I guarantee someone will take you aside and tell you to slow down because you are making everyone else look bad.

Unions are demonized because they operate in a world that is not based in reality, breeding and rewarding ineptitude and mediocrity. There is a reason why West Jet is outperforming most of North America's airlines, and I would point directly at the fact that West Jet is not unionized. It's also a big reason, I think, why West Jet's staff cares a hell of a lot more about doing a good job than Air Canada's staff.

Bang on.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Yup. There rarely is an animal as lazy as a veteran union employee. Try taking pride in doing your job fast and well in a union environment. I guarantee someone will take you aside and tell you to slow down because you are making everyone else look bad.

Unions are demonized because they operate in a world that is not based in reality, breeding and rewarding ineptitude and mediocrity. There is a reason why West Jet is outperforming most of North America's airlines, and I would point directly at the fact that West Jet is not unionized. It's also a big reason, I think, why West Jet's staff cares a hell of a lot more about doing a good job than Air Canada's staff.

My little sister works for West Jet as a flight attendant now. She had to begin in the call-center, where if you are late even once unexcused you are terminated. They pay very well but demand a lot from their staff. Early mornings, rotating schedule, and then once in the air the call-times can be nuts. Those that can hack it thrive, earning shares in the company, great pay, and the benefit of traveling to lots of places with the ability to have leisure time, if only for one day sometimes. Family flies cheap too.

Its a genuine Alberta-model company thriving through sound ethics and fair treatment of their staff. Basically, we pay great, but you better be the best. I like it.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

My little sister works for West Jet as a flight attendant now. She had to begin in the call-center, where if you are late even once unexcused you are terminated. They pay very well but demand a lot from their staff. Early mornings, rotating schedule, and then once in the air the call-times can be nuts. Those that can hack it thrive, earning shares in the company, great pay, and the benefit of traveling to lots of places with the ability to have leisure time, if only for one day sometimes. Family flies cheap too.

Its a genuine Alberta-model company thriving through sound ethics and fair treatment of their staff. Basically, we pay great, but you better be the best. I like it.

Exactly, there's nothing wrong with demanding the best from your people and expecting it. In today's age it almost never gets abused because of labour laws and the fact that people can just quit / switch jobs or apparently become funemployed.

When you expect people to do their best, and they perform, it benefits EVERYONE, especially the person who is working their hardest because they have a sense of fulfillment & pride with respect to who they are, their character and integrity. Your company benefits by being the best.

edit- not to mention that this type of behaviour only spurs greater rewards, pay, and opportunity for the employees.

Meanwhile we have people standing on the street holding a sign so they can stay home and watch Dr.Phil re-runs, sipping ginger-ale and eating soda crackers a billion days a year while garbage piles up and kids can't play recreational sports. So screwed up. Get a grip people. This isn't exactly a concentration camp life. Be fortunate for what you have.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Unions are demonized because they reward seniority rather than hard work or competence.

Fair enough. I've been a non-volunteer member of a couple unions and I know that is true.

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Unions are demonized because they use their leverage to demand (and receive) salaries and benefits totally out of line with the level of education/experience required to do those jobs.

This is what I don't get -- they "use their leverage" and everyone bashes them for doing it.

Isn't that what everyone does? Don't we all do what we can do to get our employers to pay us as much as possible? I do.

If the employees are getting "salaries and benefits totally out of line", whose fault is that?

If some guy is getting paid 40 bucks an hour to install a sunroof on a Yukon, what has he done wrong? Someone is (or was) willing to pay him that rate and he takes it.