AC has stranded us in Athens … advice?

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

I read AC was offering the union 50% for non flight time.

50% wouldn't be bad if it came with decent wages, I think AC's offer was 8%, if that came up a bit more I think they'd be dumb to turn it down

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

50% of the hourly rate for Delta unlike the AC FA ask of 100%.

Delta also starts at $37/hr USD while Air Canada starts at $25 CAD, only $3 more than in 2005

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by btimbit

50% wouldn't be bad if it came with decent wages, I think AC's offer was 8%, if that came up a bit more I think they'd be dumb to turn it down



Delta also starts at $37/hr USD while Air Canada starts at $25 CAD, only $3 more than in 2005

That’s just simply not true, you can find their actual pay schedule by googling Air Canada CUPE agreement and downloading their CBA. Here’s part of their pay table relating to flight attendants:

Spoiler!

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by btimbit

50% wouldn't be bad if it came with decent wages, I think AC's offer was 8%, if that came up a bit more I think they'd be dumb to turn it down



Delta also starts at $37/hr USD while Air Canada starts at $25 CAD, only $3 more than in 2005

I find it ridiculous when AC brags in their press releases that their offer would make their FA’s “the highest compensated in the country”. Really? That’s the bar? Just to pay higher than WestJet because your employees deserve some sort of bump anyway because it’s new contract time?

[btimbit]

Thaks paperbagger, I clearly speed-read that like a moron earlier

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

They very much were, and I’m inclined to believe my friend who was/is heavily involved in the upper management side over some keyboard jabroni like yourself. I don’t care if you don’t believe the info I’ve shared, you do you.

My comment wasn’t directed towards you or how it was originally set up, I agree they probably “were”… once upon a time.

Just the fact that it no longer balances. Actual hourly wage is not even close to well-paid.

My source(s), are a friend who tried it for two years and quit to make more money working retail, a friend’s husband who does it as a retirement gig but had to drop other part time jobs/hobbies because the scheduling requires virtually full time availability, and a friend who was a flight attendant and is currently higher up with WJ.

I mean, they’re not striking because they have cush jobs with great pay.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Thaks paperbagger, I clearly speed-read that like a moron earlier

Sorry, adding on to this now since I was in the middle of something.

Even at $30 that's say $2400/m gross (average 70-80 flight hours a month) for a full time job. To live in Vancouver or Toronto.

I kinda see their point

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Delta also starts at $37/hr USD while Air Canada starts at $25 CAD, only $3 more than in 2005

Not surprising really. Isn't it pretty common for most jobs to make significantly more in the US. That is why we struggled through the "brain drain" when I was growing up and why many people do want to still go to the US instead of working in Canada. Isn't the pilot situation around 3x for Delta compared with WestJet (especially on the top end of the pay scale)?

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

My comment wasn’t directed towards you or how it was originally set up, I agree they probably “were”… once upon a time.

Just the fact that it no longer balances. Actual hourly wage is not even close to well-paid.

My source(s), are a friend who tried it for two years and quit to make more money working retail, a friend’s husband who does it as a retirement gig but had to drop other part time jobs/hobbies because the scheduling requires virtually full time availability, and a friend who was a flight attendant and is currently higher up with WJ.

I mean, they’re not striking because they have cush jobs with great pay.

I agree with you there, it isn’t some cushy job where you make bank and I get why the union wants all hours to be paid, hell I would want that if I was a flight attendant too. I’d be inclined to forego a raise in this round of bargaining just to be paid for my time spent working as that would increase your take home pay significantly.

I’m of the opinion that CUPE should be looking to either get significant raises or change their hours of pay. I’m not sure what the unions demands are to be honest but if they are asking for both of the above that’s a pretty hard position to bargain from.

[MegaErtz]

Yes, the wage gap is a huge problem for retaining highly skilled or highly educated Canadians who can make substantially more in the US for the same job. For some reasons Canadians seem to be very thin skinned about the subject and love to deny reality.

Even basic jobs like working at McDonald's and picking up garbage pay way, way more down there. Canadians love to point at places near the Mississippi Delta that have been economically underdeveloped for centuries, but compare wages in Calgary to wages in major cities in most of the USA and there is a huge wage gap.

$25 US is $34.53 Canadian. Our dollar is worth so much less, and taxes here are mostly higher. Flight attendants for Air Canada are the same as the pilots, they know exactly how underpaid they are because they mingle and talk to flight attendants in the USA all the time. They know that they are doing the same jobs for half the money, and they also know that the airlines in Canada are just keeping a bigger piece of the pie.

[Fuzz]

Inflation makes that $25.13 equal $32.31, so it's eaten into their real wages. It looks pretty similar up the pay scale. So they've been cutting real wages, reducing their employee costs.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by icarus

I'm not stranded per se, but I'm in London and need to get to Calgary this week for some family stuff.

Unsurprisingly the flight prices from Europe to anywhere in Canada are through the roof at the moment.

The best option I could find without three or four transits was a WestJet flight to YYC from Reykjavik on Wednesday. So I'm catching a pricey BA flight to Iceland in the morning and will chill there for a few days. Literally, since most of what I packed was for a Mediterranean summer.

Don't ask your pilots to fly too high to warm you up. It may not go well for you.

[cavalera403]

Just got confirmation about hours for mainline.
There is a minimum guaranteed hours a month on reserve of 75 hours a month. ( you are on call maybe at the airport maybe at home waiting for a call)

A block of flying is built between 76-80 hours

Volunteer extension can be taken up to 100 hours. As a jr FA you are never going to see these hours because there isn’t that kind of VE available and it is awarded based on seniority among other factors.

So if my math works of 36.66 *75*12 =$32,994 a year for a flight attendant of 5 years for 2024. That is the floor. At 5 years of service you are probably getting a block during the summer and December and on reserve the rest of the year:

At 80 on a block it’s $35,194.

At max VE every month which is never going to happen because of availability of flying would be $43,992.

As per the government of Canada website the poverty line in a metropolitan area of over 500,000 residents is $30,526.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-...l-ability.html

So at an 80 block you have to be in your third year of seniority to break the poverty line working full time for AC.

[Bonded]

I’m doing the Vancouver to Winnipeg drive as my earliest flight option back was Wednesday on any airline. AC also lied to me as they said express flights were covered by different union. 35k is pretty brutal pay I am shocked they get people at that wage

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Is Air Canada subsidized? I know they paid back a pandemic loan with interest from the government (not unusual for some industries during COVID).But are they subsidized today?

In my lifetime Air Canada has received almost a billion dollars from the Canadian government nearly 8 billion in bailouts loans or whatever.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Is Air Canada subsidized?

No.

I've seen a few US airline comparisons in here, and I am in no way defending Air Canada (or WestJet who pay their flight attendants even less) but operators in Canada are taxed and levied with fees at an absurd rate compared to US airlines so it really is an apples to oranges comparison.

Working for a US airline I would make double what I make in operations currently. It's not just flight attendants, and it's not just Air Canada. My union's contract with WestJet expires in 2032... I'll be the only one on the picket line in a Flames jersey while the rest of my colleagues are in teal.

Originally Posted by White Out 403

If Air Canada is too big where they can't afford to be shut down for a few days because of a dispute with their workers...

They are indeed losing tens of millions each day this continues, but I don't believe anybody has made this claim. Unlike WestJet, Air Canada's financials are all publicly available so it takes less than 5 minutes for anybody to determine they were not 48 hours from collapse.

Originally Posted by jayswin

I still don't understand how that is legal. You show up to work, you clock in and you get paid. Are they considered contractors, is that how they get around it?

They get around it by simply having minimum guaranteed pay, i.e. what is effectively a salary. I am no way saying they are sufficiently paid but in simple terms it's just salaried pay within the bounds of a contract their union negotiated with the airline.

Originally Posted by btimbit

Also, I'm pretty sure AC crew bases are Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. Not exactly cheap places to live

Calgary is also a flight attendant base, but not a mainline pilot base. A common reason for YYC-LHR to be delayed is because it's always Vancouver-based pilots operating it and their inbound deadhead from YVR is delayed.

Originally Posted by Bonded

AC also lied to me as they said express flights were covered by different union.

"Air Canada Express" is not a thing that actually exists so that is maybe part of your confusion but Jazz flight attendants have a different contract with CFAU not CUPE that doesn't expire till the end of the year (same day as WestJet) and they have indeed been operating throughout the strike.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Acey

"Air Canada Express" is not a thing that actually exists so that is maybe part of your confusion but Jazz flight attendants have a different contract with CFAU not CUPE that doesn't expire till the end of the year (same day as WestJet) and they have indeed been operating throughout the strike.

From their multiple emails to me before I left:

We wanted to remind and reassure you that your flights are expected to operate as planned. Air Canada Express operators Jazz and PAL airlines are not part of the labour negotiations with CUPE.   

So either they didn’t realize my flight back wasn’t Jazz or they lost the inbound plane. Does jazz share planes with non ac express?

[Torture]

Originally Posted by MegaErtz

Yes, the wage gap is a huge problem for retaining highly skilled or highly educated Canadians who can make substantially more in the US for the same job. For some reasons Canadians seem to be very thin skinned about the subject and love to deny reality.

Even basic jobs like working at McDonald's and picking up garbage pay way, way more down there. Canadians love to point at places near the Mississippi Delta that have been economically underdeveloped for centuries, but compare wages in Calgary to wages in major cities in most of the USA and there is a huge wage gap..

Highly skilled workers sure. Low-skilled? Absolutely not.
Are there parts of America that pay higher, yes. But to say that it's way way more is just not true.

I work in HR for an American company that hires a significant number of low-skilled workers. I see what we hire at and what compensation data says for other retailers so I'd say I'm pretty qualified to say pay is not significantly higher for low-skill workers in the US compared to Canada. Plus low skilled workers have very little job protections compared to Canadians and have to pay significantly more for benefits.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Bonded

So either they didn’t realize my flight back wasn’t Jazz or they lost the inbound plane. Does jazz share planes with non ac express?

Nope, their planes are their own

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

If Air Canada is too big where they can't afford to be shut down for a few days because of a dispute with their workers, it sounds like it's too vital to be a private company.

This is basically my opinion. Governments shouldn't be intervening in labour disputes (especially private sector labour disputes). If the national interest is so high that they feel they need to then the national interest should dictate that it be nationalized.

[sketchyt]

In the event anyone can't get through to AC's customer support using their listed number, try 1-800-997-4427.

I was able to at least get in a queue instead of the regular 2262 number and managed to speak with someone.