AC has stranded us in Athens … advice?

[Fuzz]

If the employer requires you to be there and to be doing various things, that's work. Maybe that's how the industry is, but to me, it sounds insane.


Do they do this in Europe, too, or is another US corporate import we adopted?

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If the employer requires you to be there and to be doing various things, that's work. Maybe that's how the industry is, but to me, it sounds insane.


Do they do this in Europe, too, or is another US corporate import we adopted?

Just the US as far as I can tell. In Australia, UK and EU they're paid when they get to the airport

[cavalera403]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/montreal/arti...irport-tarmac/

When you read this article know that these flight attendants were not being paid.


I have a friend who is a FA for virgin Australia and can confirm that they are paid from the time they clock in at the airport to when they leave at the end of their shift.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If the employer requires you to be there and to be doing various things, that's work. Maybe that's how the industry is, but to me, it sounds insane.


Do they do this in Europe, too, or is another US corporate import we adopted?

I am friends with a high up at an airline (not AC) and his explanation was sort of interesting. I guess decades ago it was an industry standard practice to only pay for the “flight time” for simplicity of tracking hours. The extra work performed was compensated to FAs by having a higher/inflated hourly pay. This was standard practice and deemed acceptable by the union for a very long time.

After looking at the FA’s pay schedule they are compensated quite well given there is no post secondary education and only on the job training required. The job does require sacrifices, spending many nights away from home. But $30-$63 an hour is nothing to scoff at.

[cavalera403]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

I am friends with a high up at an airline (not AC) and his explanation was sort of interesting. I guess decades ago it was an industry standard practice to only pay for the “flight time” for simplicity of tracking hours. The extra work performed was compensated to FAs by having a higher/inflated hourly pay. This was standard practice and deemed acceptable by the union for a very long time.

After looking at the FA’s pay schedule they are compensated quite well given there is no post secondary education and only on the job training required. The job does require sacrifices, spending many nights away from home. But $30-$63 an hour is nothing to scoff at.

I agree with the wage being very good if you got paid for 144-160 hours a month. But the point is “ full time” is 80 hours a month with 35 hrs a month of unpaid duty’s. And because of how crew schedules work especially for the more hr. People you don’t have planned flying and can’t hold times off so finding a part time job that can be flexible to that schedule is very difficult.


Also something at was noted that Toronto Montreal Vancouver are the main hubs and very expensive places to live. So you can live outside of those areas but that is just adding commuting time.

[PepsiFree]

Flight Attendant wages are definitely not set to balance the unpaid portion of their job lol. What a silly comment.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by cavalera403

I agree with the wage being very good if you got paid for 144-160 hours a month. But the point is “ full time” is 80 hours a month with 35 hrs a month of unpaid duty’s. And because of how crew schedules work especially for the more hr. People you don’t have planned flying and can’t hold times off so finding a part time job that can be flexible to that schedule is very difficult.


Also something at was noted that Toronto Montreal Vancouver are the main hubs and very expensive places to live. So you can live outside of those areas but that is just adding commuting time.

And those are all really good and fair points, I was just giving historical context as to why both the union and management were ok with this unpaid work for a very long time. The union is totally in the right for fighting for all work is paid work.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

I am friends with a high up at an airline (not AC) and his explanation was sort of interesting. I guess decades ago it was an industry standard practice to only pay for the “flight time” for simplicity of tracking hours. The extra work performed was compensated to FAs by having a higher/inflated hourly pay. This was standard practice and deemed acceptable by the union for a very long time.

Did your friend mention whether or not anything has changed in the industry in the “decades” since that practice began?

After looking at the FA’s pay schedule they are compensated quite well given there is no post secondary education and only on the job training required. The job does require sacrifices, spending many nights away from home. But $30-$63 an hour is nothing to scoff at.

Kinda tough to make a call on whether or not the hourly rate is “nothing to scoff at” without knowing how many unpaid hours are excluded.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Flight Attendant wages are definitely not set to balance the unpaid portion of their job lol. What a silly comment.

They very much were, and I’m inclined to believe my friend who was/is heavily involved in the upper management side over some keyboard jabroni like yourself. I don’t care if you don’t believe the info I’ve shared, you do you.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Flight Attendant wages are definitely not set to balance the unpaid portion of their job lol. What a silly comment.

Googling the issue, (yes, only Google) seems to support the hypotheses that wages in the industry were negotiated for paid time to account for overall compensation.

It doesn’t make it right, nor does it mean anyone should agree with it. But it certainly seems to be the case.

The concept of overall compensation vs hourly wage for specific hours worked really is throwing everyone for a loop.

Obviously a union is going to say they want an hourly wage increase plus for the pay to apply for every hour worked while the company is going to say you can’t have it both ways as current hourly wage is high in order to account for the non-flying time that was unpaid.

[White Out 403]

If Air Canada is too big where they can't afford to be shut down for a few days because of a dispute with their workers, it sounds like it's too vital to be a private company.

I say we stop subsidizing Air Canada with bailouts and simply seize the airline and make it a crown corporation. Then we can pay the flight attendants a decent wage for hours worked.

[sa226]

This whole "Unpaid work won't fly" campaign has admittedly been strange from my point of view.

If they are fundamentally looking to change how they get paid, I can get behind that i guess. if they were to structure it a certain way it could be cost neutral to the company. But if they think its going to just magically double their salaries, I think its a poor strategy.

Its certainly a hybrid system, but flight crew are essentially salaried employees. They have minimum guaranteed hours per month. So to say that they are showing up to work and not getting paid is a bit of a red herring. In my opinion they are doing themselves a bit of a disservice by running this campaign because I'm seeing a lot of half truths and straight up misinformation being used for their cause.

I dont understand why they dont just do what every other bargaining unit has done and take their comparables , take the large increase in cost of living since the last agreement, tack on a swing for the fences percentages, and present their case at the table.

What they get paid and how they get paid are very different things, if they are able to capture these "Unpaid hours" then the hourly rate would likely have to come down to reflect what a typical raise would be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from
"Pro corporation " i applaud the fight they are putting up with potentially unconstitutional government interference. Air Canada can't always run to mommy and daddy when they have a problem with their workers. There is a troublesome trend in Canadian labour of corporations not bargaining in good faith and waiting for the government to step in. That needs to stop.



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[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

If Air Canada is too big where they can't afford to be shut down for a few days because of a dispute with their workers, it sounds like it's too vital to be a private company.

I say we stop subsidizing Air Canada with bailouts and simply seize the airline and make it a crown corporation. Then we can pay the flight attendants a decent wage for hours worked.

Is Air Canada subsidized? I know they paid back a pandemic loan with interest from the government (not unusual for some industries during COVID).But are they subsidized today?

[cavalera403]

Another thing is that the last contract was negotiated over10 years ago. Not much has gone on during the last 10 years.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by sa226

This whole "Unpaid work won't fly" campaign has admittedly been strange from my point of view.

If they are fundamentally looking to change how they get paid, I can get behind that i guess. if they were to structure it a certain way it could be cost neutral to the company. But if they think its going to just magically double their salaries, I think its a poor strategy.

Its certainly a hybrid system, but flight crew are essentially salaried employees. They have minimum guaranteed hours per month. So to say that they are showing up to work and not getting paid is a bit of a red herring. In my opinion they are doing themselves a bit of a disservice by running this campaign because I'm seeing a lot of half truths and straight up misinformation being used for their cause.

I dont understand why they dont just do what every other bargaining unit has done and take their comparables , take the large increase in cost of living since the last agreement, tack on a swing for the fences percentages, and present their case at the table.

What they get paid and how they get paid are very different things, if they are able to capture these "Unpaid hours" then the hourly rate would likely have to come down to reflect what a typical raise would be.

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from
"Pro corporation " i applaud the fight they are putting up with potentially unconstitutional government interference. Air Canada can't always run to mommy and daddy when they have a problem with their workers. There is a troublesome trend in Canadian labour of corporations not bargaining in good faith and waiting for the government to step in. That needs to stop.



Sent from my SM-S918W using Tapatalk

It seems obvious the union recognizes the industry standard in Canada and America is that there is unpaid, or reduced pay for non flying time for flight attendants and they believe they are unlikely to win at binding arbitration for all the goals they have.

Surely if they thought they could secure a significant pay increase AND have that pay apply to every hour in uniform, they would be eager to go to binding arbitration.

Who are each side going to cite as their comparibles in the industry for the purpose of arbitration? Australia? Europe? Or Canada/U.S? Which group do you think an arbitrator is likely to use?

I also don’t see any use of both sides at the bargaining table anymore

Union “we want to be the first airline in North America that gets full pay for every hour worked and we want a big raise on top of that”

AC “we’ll give you a big raise but the other thing is a non starter, k thanks”

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

If Air Canada is too big where they can't afford to be shut down for a few days because of a dispute with their workers, it sounds like it's too vital to be a private company.

I say we stop subsidizing Air Canada with bailouts and simply seize the airline and make it a crown corporation. Then we can pay the flight attendants a decent wage for hours worked.

What makes you think the flight attendants would be adequately paid if they worked for the government? Public sector workers are constantly complaining about being underpaid and overworked. If the government felt they needed to step in and make things right with wages there are probably easier ways of doing that instead rationalizing the company. Aviation workers are federally regulated so the government can establish whatever minimum wage they feel is fair and adequate.

[btimbit]

Worth pointing out that Alaska, American and Delta all pay their flight attendants for boarding time. Southwest and United don't but have some sort of pay top up program that gets FA's a few more dollars over just flying time

The ask from the Union isn't that crazy or out of the norm (depending of course on what else they want with it)

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Worth pointing out that Alaska, American and Delta all pay their flight attendants for boarding time. Southwest and United don't but have some sort of pay top up program that gets FA's a few more dollars over just flying time

The ask from the Union isn't that crazy or out of the norm (depending of course on what else they want with it)

50% of the hourly rate for Delta unlike the AC FA ask of 100%.

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Worth pointing out that Alaska, American and Delta all pay their flight attendants for boarding time. Southwest and United don't but have some sort of pay top up program that gets FA's a few more dollars over just flying time

The ask from the Union isn't that crazy or out of the norm (depending of course on what else they want with it)

I read AC was offering the union 50% for non flight time.

[icarus]

I'm not stranded per se, but I'm in London and need to get to Calgary this week for some family stuff.

Unsurprisingly the flight prices from Europe to anywhere in Canada are through the roof at the moment.

The best option I could find without three or four transits was a WestJet flight to YYC from Reykjavik on Wednesday. So I'm catching a pricey BA flight to Iceland in the morning and will chill there for a few days. Literally, since most of what I packed was for a Mediterranean summer.