Can the Flames win a cup with Johnny Hockey as the man ?

[atb]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I've been hesitant to post in this thread, as it feels like a discussion that should happen after the season, and I'm not prepared to shovel dirt on them yet. I don't think this ends in Game 5. I really don't.

But then again the question has validity. i would apply it to both Sean and Johnny. And I will admit that it is a growing concern of mine that they aren't guys you will win with. I think they both WANT to win. I think they both HATE to lose. But I'm not sure they are committed to what it takes.

Agree with this sentiment, their playoff stat lines are abysmal, especially for 5 on 5.

Monahan 19gp, 3 goals 2 assists, 0.26ppg when playing 5v5
Gaudreau 19gp, 2 goals 3 assists, 0.26ppg when playing 5v5

Compare this to:

MacKinnon 17gp, 6 goals 10 assists, 0.94ppg 5v5
Landeskog 17gp, 5 goals 6 assists 0.64ppg 5v5

Not going to have much success in the playoffs if your top forwards play like bottom 6 players when 5v5.

[Scary Eloranta]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Monahan has been an issue... i don't know if he's injured, but he's invisible out there...

He's trigger man; he's not a guy that can generate offense.

I don't think Johnny's the issue with the Flames being down 3-1 because he isn't getting a lot of support from Monahan or Lindholm right now... though i don't disagree that he needs to stop complaining to the refs as that has been shown not to do anything... in fact it would not surprise me if its been a negative

surprisingly, what this series has shown to me at least is how slow the flames are, at least compared to the Avs.

That point cannot be argued. Even scarier, it can't be fixed unless you unload all the slow pokes and who's gonna want them?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Panarin likely has that extra gear come playoff time.

And you are right, he's not that big, but he's still is quite a bit bigger than Johnny.

Players Johnny's size can be effective in the playoffs to be sure, but they need to raise their compete level to succeed. I don't think Johnny has figured out how to do that yet. Until he does, most hockey people will be skeptical that he can.

It take some players a number of years to figure that out. Some never do.

Panarin (who is only 2 inches and 1 kg larger, according to nhl.com) broke in to the league on a team with Toews and Kane (also only 5’10, but a burly 177) and saw firsthand how these guys played effectively in the playoffs.

I guess James Neal was supposed to help somewhat here, but good lord, he has been a terrible player.

[keenan87]

Trade 1: Gaudreau for Hall
Trade 2: Monahan for Point
Trade 3: Brodie for 1st Round Pick
Trade 4: Frolik for 2nd Round Pick
Trade 5: James Neal + 1st Round Pick for Futures
Trade 6: Mikael Backlund + 2nd Round for Rickard Rakell
Trade 7: Michael Stone for 7th Round Pick
Signing 1: Matt Duchene

Hall-Point-Lindholm
Tkachuck-Duchene-Rakell
Bennett-Dube-Mangiapane
Hathaway-Ryan-Quine

Giordano-Andersson
Hanifin-Hamonic
Valimaki-Kylington

Rittich
Parsons

Or the Flames can freakin win 3 games in a row and prove me wrong!

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Monahan has been an issue... i don't know if he's injured, but he's invisible out there...

He's trigger man; he's not a guy that can generate offense.

I don't think Johnny's the issue with the Flames being down 3-1 because he isn't getting a lot of support from Monahan or Lindholm right now... though i don't disagree that he needs to stop complaining to the refs as that has been shown not to do anything... in fact it would not surprise me if its been a negative

surprisingly, what this series has shown to me at least is how slow the flames are, at least compared to the Avs.

I think the big thing is that our key guys are slow. Monahan, Tkachuk, Gio, Frolik. That's a lot of our offense either slowly getting up the ice or back. If our top end guys were fast and we had the cement leg-like Froliks, Gio's etc bringing up the rear it wouldn't be such a glaring issue.

Panarin, Skinner, Duchene are all fast offensive wizards and free agents. Frankly I think Jeff Skinner would be a great add to the Flames. He is only 26.

[PepsiFree]

It’s amazing how people think that after the season we had and the number of career high seasons our players had, that after 4 playoff games our team is filled with untradeable garbage, or that Johnny could even get a player like Zibenjad.

I know being down 3-1 is disappointing, but reign it in folks!

[dissentowner]

Good Lord there are some seriously embarrassing posts in this thread.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Monahan has been an issue... i don't know if he's injured, but he's invisible out there...

He's trigger man; he's not a guy that can generate offense.

I don't think Johnny's the issue with the Flames being down 3-1 because he isn't getting a lot of support from Monahan or Lindholm right now... though i don't disagree that he needs to stop complaining to the refs as that has been shown not to do anything... in fact it would not surprise me if its been a negative

surprisingly, what this series has shown to me at least is how slow the flames are, at least compared to the Avs.

I would bet serious money that he's playing hurt, and has been for some time.

[Psytic]

Im telling you guys Bennett is still the answer here if he can get a shooter tutor in the off season. Johnny just needs more space and someone with grit to play with in the playoffs... if P Kane can win that many cups than so can Johnny. We just need a centre that does more than pot in tap ins. Put Monahan on line two with Chucky and make him use his brain more. Monahan is totally capable of creating with out Johnny he did it in his first NHL season. Hes gotten lazier and used to standing around waiting for passes playing with Johnny.


Its better for both of them to split them up. Johnny gets some one more physical that can create time and space and Monahan will be challenged to be as dynamic as he used to be in Junior and forced to drive his own line, it also creates a second scoring threat. You could even move James Neal up to the first line to still have an elite finisher to accept passes that isn't required to move their feet. I dont think its a case of having the wrong players I still think this roster has more to give this series if Peters can juggle them around.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

I think the big thing is that our key guys are slow. Monahan, Tkachuk, Gio, Frolik. That's a lot of our offense either slowly getting up the ice or back. If our top end guys were fast and we had the cement leg-like Froliks, Gio's etc bringing up the rear it wouldn't be such a glaring issue.

Panarin, Skinner, Duchene are all fast offensive wizards and free agents. Frankly I think Jeff Skinner would be a great add to the Flames. He is only 26.

They certainly are top offensive players, the ones you listed. However, top UFA players will be difficult for the Flames to sign. We will always be stuck with the mid to lower/aging tier free agents, plus usually having to overpay even them. Especially since the Flames are on the lower end of places where players would want or choose to play.

Most players with NTC in their contracts have the Flames on it(along with the Oilers, Sabres, Carolina etc). This all goes to show the Flames aren't a place for many players to want to be traded to let alone for a Top UFA to willingly sign with.

[Sylvanfan]

You always want to be careful before you start running good players out of town.

It's highly likely that guys like Gaudreau, Monahan, and Backlund are going to be 2-12 in their last 14 playoff games come Friday Night. In the last two series where it's 1-8 they only got run out of the building once...but it seems like the team is still short an element or two for this group to be able to flip some of these close games.

But the fact that a guy like Brouwer wasn't even a good third liner, and then they went to a more expensive proven guy like Neal who also hasn't done anything is starting to hurt the team. When you consider the Dollars tied up in Frolik, Neal, Stone, and Brouwers buyout to basically get zero playoff production...that's tough to accept. One can argue that the money is far better allocated on another center, but the problem is finding that player to bring in. Than again if there was more cap space, maybe they could have made a pitch for a guy like O'Reilly. That's where that rebuild needed to be one more year, and yield a top center with those high picks.

On the brightside, Valimaki was good last night, Anderson hasn't wilted in the moment, and Mangiapane has been good at times. The 87-88 team got arse reamed in 4 games, struggled like crazy against an inferior opponent in round one the next year, than went thru to the cup the next year. But that was after they acquired Gilmour and were able to run three lines of Gilmour, Niewendyk, and Otto down the middle.

Maybe you see what you can get for Monahan in a trade, and see if you can somehow bring in a different center, and maybe younger top 6 winger, and move Lindholm into the #2 Center role.

It's tricky because the team likely is close or else they wouldn't have been as good as they were in the regular season, but it's identifying that subtle boost they need to turn these OT games back in their favor.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Gaudreau is supposedly one of the elite guys in the NHL...elite guys make those around them better.

yet, in Calgary, we expect other guys to make him better? (IE: its all Monahan and Lindholms fault). That is a load of dung and a complete cop out.

Johnny is an elite talent without question, but he is not an elite hockey player. His theatrics every goddamn time a stick gets close to him is an example of that. I know im not alone in saying I have seen way too much of it and it has to stop. Its the playoffs. Playoff time means it gets harder to play...as it should. Literally hundreds of other guys are able to adjust, but not this guy? Always excuses for him and it has to stop.

Monahan certainly has his own issues whether they be injury related or not, but that has NOTHING to do with the performance of Gaudreau. The guy needs to figure it out or get out. He has a real opportunity to be the guy everyone wants him to be and to be the guy he is being paid to be. Let's see if he is able to take the next step and actually play the way he can.

Im not holding my breath.

Yep. Gaudreau is a no show and people are blaming his linemmates? The blame has to rest on his shoulders.

We won playoff rounds in 2003-04 through urgency, desperation, speed and physicality. I'm seeing little to none of that this year. The 4th line is the only one playing with the desperation and urgency required.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Neal has been fine.
Entirely unspectacular, but OK.

Fine? I guess if your expectation is that he skates a few circles and waves his sticks at a few guys.

For the playoffs? He's been far from fine. He's been godawful just like he's been all season.

[Vinny01]

The thing about the Flames is none of our stars are paid like franchise players. Many teams have secondary guys making the money that Johnny and Monahan make. Monahan has a fine cap hit for a #2 center. Johnny will be our second highest paid LW next year when Tkachuk passes him.

The Flames could dump Neal, Brodie, Frolik and Stones contracts that would leave money to bring in another high priced piece. Johnny and Monny are more than worth their cap hits.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Yep. Gaudreau is a no show and people are blaming his linemmates? The blame has to rest on his shoulders.

We won playoff rounds in 2003-04 through urgency, desperation, speed and physicality. I'm seeing little to none of that this year. The 4th line is the only one playing with the desperation and urgency required.

Q had Byfuglien playing forward at one point for the Hawks in the playoffs to create more space. Its not totally on Johnny he is what he is. Peters needs to get creative at this point. We tried pure elbow grease 3 games in a row. Its clear something more creative needs to happen on top of this.

[edn88]

I am scared to post in this thread as well, but here goes....

I think that part of the forwards problem is that the rules are different than they were to start the year. Gaudreau was fine when hooking and slashing were called. In the games I have seen, every time he has the puck he is whacked or hooked etc. If teams feel like they cannot get away with that JG is going to be able to get the time and space he needs to make plays.

I don't think it is unreasonable to question whether JG should be here as part of the solution. But it is not unreasonable to question any of the players that are not getting it done in the playoffs.

If you thought this team was winning the cup, I think you might have been mistaken. If they don't lose in this round, then they are losing to Vegas. It would have been nice for them to get some more experience.

I think you can look at Colorado to see how the next few years have to go. The Avs over achieved, then took a step back and keep moving forward. With some of their recent additions, I think you will see them being a west powerhouse soon.

So the Flames need to answer the question about JG. He probably can be effective in the playoffs, but he needs a McKinnon type player to play with.

[dino7c]

When the other team knows your center can't carry the puck it certainly makes things harder on the wingers

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Trade 1: Gaudreau for Hall
Trade 2: Monahan for Point
Trade 3: Brodie for 1st Round Pick
Trade 4: Frolik for 2nd Round Pick
Trade 5: James Neal + 1st Round Pick for Futures
Trade 6: Mikael Backlund + 2nd Round for Rickard Rakell
Trade 7: Michael Stone for 7th Round Pick
Signing 1: Matt Duchene

Hall-Point-Lindholm
Tkachuck-Duchene-Rakell
Bennett-Dube-Mangiapane
Hathaway-Ryan-Quine

Giordano-Andersson
Hanifin-Hamonic
Valimaki-Kylington

Rittich
Parsons

Or the Flames can freakin win 3 games in a row and prove me wrong!

I commented to you in the PGT.

why should the flames trade Gaudreau for only one year of hall? seems like a bad idea.

and let's say they did. you think he'd take less than 10M per year to stay on the flames?

while we're at it, no way the bolts would trade you Point for Monahan. never ever.


brodie might get you a lower 1st round pick the way he's played the past 3 years.
questionable if Frolik at this point gets you a second. maybe again, one at th elower end.

[camm13]

So many excuses for Monahan potentially playing injured. Well Bergeron played with a seperated shoulder, and a broke rib in the 2013 cup run and was still a beast.

[Strange Brew]

The tricky thing in trading a guy like Gaudreau, or any other star player, is getting back what you truly need. A young number one center, with size and speed, on a good contract who can replace Johnny's offense.