[News] Expansion decision expected by June 22

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Casino's aren't big on comping things that take you away from their site. They were talking about this on the radio today.

They will comp you show tickets/hotels/food/bars. But it's all on their property. For most people that is.

Fair enough, but I imagine that having a sports ticket will supersede the idea of keeping gamblers on the property. Even if they don't comp them, I imagine they'll still want to have quite a few tickets for their guests to access through the concierge or something like that. Entertaining large visiting groups and all that.

There are many ways to make money on this for the casino/hotels. It doesn't have to be restricted to traditional methods. This is relatively new territory for Vegas.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I believe this to be true. However, there is an element of making folks feel special and liking to give things out for free to high rollers who they know are going to come back just cause those folks want to say they "got something".

That said, I doubt the business model in Vegas and the NHL would have anything to do with comps to high rollers already down in Vegas. My guess is it would be a destination play to existing hockey fans in other markets. For example:

Hey CSW from Calgary, come to the MGM Grand and stay 3 nights with you and a bunch of your buddies, and we'll throw in the tickets to the Flames game while you are down here for free.

So they lose me for 3 hrs while I watch the game, but I just planned a whole boys weekend around going to Vegas to see the Flames and they get me in their casino and restaurants for the other 69 hrs of my trip.

Bloody hell, you read my mind.

[Senator Clay Davis]

With hand out comps they want you in the casino, and since the arena is totally detached unlike the MGM Grand Garden or the Mandalay Bay Events Center where you have to walk through the casino to get to the arena, I'm guessing comps would more than likely go to people in the casinos already, likely those who are losing money (keep the customer happy after all). So yeah go to NY/NY, blow a couple hundred at the tables and you'll probably get a comp.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I'm still shocked the NHL is actually wanting to do expansion when it has several very poor markets already.

It's all about chasing that magic pot of gold at the end of the expansion rainbow - a big TV contract that will stuff hundreds of millions in the pockets of the owners.

[Par]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I believe this to be true. However, there is an element of making folks feel special and liking to give things out for free to high rollers who they know are going to come back just cause those folks want to say they "got something".

That said, I doubt the business model in Vegas and the NHL would have anything to do with comps to high rollers already down in Vegas. My guess is it would be a destination play to existing hockey fans in other markets. For example:

Hey CSW from Calgary, come to the MGM Grand and stay 3 nights with you and a bunch of your buddies, and we'll throw in the tickets to the Flames game while you are down here for free.

So they lose me for 3 hrs while I watch the game, but I just planned a whole boys weekend around going to Vegas to see the Flames and they get me in their casino and restaurants for the other 69 hrs of my trip.

Can I be one of you buddies/boys

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Par

Can I be one of you buddies/boys

Haha, I don't see why not, but I also didn't say I was paying my buddies way on the trip either

[Par]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Haha, I don't see why not, but I also didn't say I was paying my buddies way on the trip either

Oh what

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It's all about chasing that magic pot of gold at the end of the expansion rainbow - a big TV contract that will stuff hundreds of millions in the pockets of the owners.

And in 1990, you would have been right.

But it is 2016 and the NHL has eight years left on its US TV deal. Also, nobody would reasonably think that the NHL thinks expanding to Las Vegas would dramatically increase the value of a national TV deal in a way other markets had not.

You would have been better off pointing to the half-billion dollar expansion fee being the pot o' gold, Cliff.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

But it is 2016 and the NHL has eight years left on its US TV deal. Also, nobody would reasonably think that the NHL thinks expanding to Las Vegas would dramatically increase the value of a national TV deal in a way other markets had not.

You would have been better off pointing to the half-billion dollar expansion fee being the pot o' gold, Cliff.

Quebec is putting forward that same half-billion dollar expansion fee. So why does the league prefer a market with 20K hockey fans to one with 500K hockey fans?

[Hockey Fan #751]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Ok, you are a tourist coming to Vegas. You can go to shows, concerts, gambling, etc...but instead you are going to go to a hockey game, the least popular sport in the U.S.? I really don't think so.

Except if I was a tourist going to Vegas, I would schedule it around a Flames game. Because that would be awesome! Flames, concerts, gambling, shows. Sounds like a great 3-4 day trip.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Quebec is putting forward that same half-billion dollar expansion fee. So why does the league prefer a market with 20K hockey fans to one with 500K hockey fans?

People lose the plot a bit on the comparison between a Quebec City and a market like Vegas or any other US market they might consider (actually the Vegas thing is much more of an unusual business model but point remains).

Quebec City is a lock to not be a disaster, but it's also never going to be a big winner. It's a safe investment that won't tank, but it's also never going to generate a huge return. Betman said as much when the NHL went back to Winnipeg, talked about given the size of the market, economy in Winnipeg, that basically everything needs to go right for Winnipeg to be just a little bit successful. It upset people but it's true, the market is just so small, and that same applies to Quebec City.

All the other markets the NHL is interested in have a much much larger chance of failure than Quebec, but they also gave a much much larger ceiling if things go right. In expansion, if you have an investor willing to pay the price, and take the risk, why wouldn't the league go after the big payoff potential, there's no real risk with tones of upside.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Quebec is putting forward that same half-billion dollar expansion fee. So why does the league prefer a market with 20K hockey fans to one with 500K hockey fans?

It's just speculation on my part, but I wonder how solid the $500 million is from Quebec City. If the money was truly in place, I don't see the NHL turning it down.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Quebec is putting forward that same half-billion dollar expansion fee. So why does the league prefer a market with 20K hockey fans to one with 500K hockey fans?

Are they? I thought they were struggling to get the financing together to make the payment. That's why they have been talking with Carolina. I don't think Quebec can put the scratch together for an expansion team, but they are the perfect location for relocation.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I believe this to be true. However, there is an element of making folks feel special and liking to give things out for free to high rollers who they know are going to come back just cause those folks want to say they "got something".

That said, I doubt the business model in Vegas and the NHL would have anything to do with comps to high rollers already down in Vegas. My guess is it would be a destination play to existing hockey fans in other markets. For example:

Hey CSW from Calgary, come to the MGM Grand and stay 3 nights with you and a bunch of your buddies, and we'll throw in the tickets to the Flames game while you are down here for free.

So they lose me for 3 hrs while I watch the game, but I just planned a whole boys weekend around going to Vegas to see the Flames and they get me in their casino and restaurants for the other 69 hrs of my trip.

Plus, there are ways of boosting their income by filling the seat and offering in seat service with their tab just being put on your room charge.

"Of course we should have more beers and food; we're in Vegas!"

Meanwhile you and your buddies are loading up on $10 USD beers and ordering the premium nachos that your server recommended ("They're really good guys...") with $6 Guacamole and $6 Chicken added on.

$70 each later you're on the free shuttle back to the Casino that drops you off in an area on property that forces you to go by the most popular tables before getting to your room access.

You play a few hands because you haven't gambled the entire time you were at the game.

You glance at your phone and it's 5:15 am. They managed to get you to gamble all night and made money off of you in your down time by making you pay captive audience prices.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Quebec is putting forward that same half-billion dollar expansion fee. So why does the league prefer a market with 20K hockey fans to one with 500K hockey fans?

Because the market with 20k fans contains 900k people who could become hockey fans with a little exposure to the game.

The market with 500k fans contains 0 people who still might become a hockey fan.

Edit: Quebec is a pretty sure thing as far as the NHL is concerned. Winnipeg 2.0, a place that's guaranteed to give 5-10 years of sellouts out of gratitude. The NHL is going to keep Quebec in the back pocket as a relocation destination.

Any team that really fails in it's market will be relocated to QC, that's how they'll get their team, not through expansion.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

The NHL gave all those potential owners in Seattle a chance to put their money where there mouth is and apply for an expansion team.

None of them did (I am sure for varying reasons). Says a lot in terms of the current state of Seattle as a potential NHL expansion city.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I'm still shocked the NHL is actually wanting to do expansion when it has several very poor markets already. It's not like the NFL where every team is swimming in cash. There are obvious teams that should be moving, yet they want to add another team to another questionable market. The NHL should really avoid Vegas to me, the NFL is lurking and that would devastate the NHL team from a corporate investment and luxury box perspective. I also think the NBA will swoop in quickly in the NHL does even slightly well, and that too will severely hurt the NHL team. Vegas sports fans love the NFL and NBA...NHL, not so much.

If you look at Anaheim, they have put forth a team that resembles a dynasty (outside of, you know, actually winning anything), and that hasn't put asses in seats. If the NHL wants Vegas to succeed they're almost forced to rig things so they have enough talent to be successful quickly. But a middling NHL hockey team in Las Vegas is the same as any other middling entertainment option down there, likely to be cancelled without a casino residency.

This is sort of where it breaks down for me. The NHL is surprised that perhaps there wasn't more buy in for expansion teams, yet they come out the gates saying along the lines of 'if you want an expansion team it'll cost you $500MM minimum'???

Meanwhile most of their franchise values are far below that in markets with shorter term growth horizons? Established markets where a couple successful years and the brand recognition is already there, building already there, team is likely closer to being cup contender than new one, etc. etc.?

The NHL shot itself in the foot by publicly throwing out too high an asking price for expansion IMO. If I have $500MM and want to buy a hockey team, I'm not expanding, I'm buying a team and trying to make it work or trying to move it.

[activeStick]

If I had a bachelor party in Vegas I'd definitely put an nhl game on the agenda. There should be enough bachelor parties in Vegas to support home games from Wednesday to Saturday.

If the NHL is smart they make it such that Wednesday to Saturday are the large majority of home games for Las Vegas with the other days seeing the team on the road.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by activeStick

If I had a bachelor party in Vegas I'd definitely put an nhl game on the agenda.

It's kind of hard to have strippers jumping out of cakes at an NHL game. Pass.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by New Era

Are they? I thought they were struggling to get the financing together to make the payment. That's why they have been talking with Carolina. I don't think Quebec can put the scratch together for an expansion team, but they are the perfect location for relocation.

I hadn't heard this but have no problem believing it.

NHL really needs to be careful on relos and franchise sales though. Can't charge $500 million and then let Quebec group buy the Hurricanes for $200 million. You can charge a relo fee but you need to protect that franchise value.

When all said and done, it could be no expansion team actually pays $500 million.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I hadn't heard this but have no problem believing it.

NHL really needs to be careful on relos and franchise sales though. Can't charge $500 million and then let Quebec group buy the Hurricanes for $200 million. You can charge a relo fee but you need to protect that franchise value.

When all said and done, it could be no expansion team actually pays $500 million.

That's probably the reason Bettman is dead set against relocations. If an investor can't buy a team and move it, his only choice is to pay a huge expansion fee for a new franchise. Also

The figure is high because Bettman would have trouble selling the idea of expansion to owners who aren’t keen on sharing TV and other league revenues with new partners.

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/ho...xpansion-hopes

Quebec City has put up the $10M to stay in it but with the Canadian Looney at a low, today it would cost them $653M Canadian.

Duhatschek says with a $500M expansion fee Quebec City won't work.

But what if the buy-in for the Jets had been four times higher, as it would be for expansion teams? Could Winnipeg keep operating in the black if the cost of financing the Thrashers purchase was that high?
No.
And however well the Quebec City franchise does at the box office, in merchandise sales and local television revenue, the market could not spin off enough cash to make a $680-million (Canadian) buy-in work. That is the NHL’s concern, even though Quebecor, the prospective buyer, has deep pockets.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle27653820/