YLYL Thread and other things...

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by Eastern Girl

We whined away your T&A thread.

While obvious sarcasm, this is actually a pretty succinct summary of the last month of the off-topic forum.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Here's a purposely over-the-top hyperbolic example

Originally Posted by RyZ

Really?

Yes, men viewing pictures of women is like slavery.

Do one for Nazi's and Jews too.

We are so evil.

There was a valid questioning of why the poll was generated and kept active for so long even though the numbers pretty much took their final form after the first week. In response to that you concocted this ridiculous example in which people who supported keeping the thread are implicitly linked to those supporting slavery. That link is there regardless of how much you preface your scenario, and that's what RyZ was taking issue with.

There are (were) good arguments to be made for getting rid of the thread, none of which involve reaching for over the top parallels to slavery or any other real world example of minority oppression.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

While obvious sarcasm, this is actually a pretty succinct summary of the last month of the off-topic forum.

I think it would be more accurate to say that you failed put forth a convincing argument that the thread added more to the forum than it cost.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

There was a valid questioning of why the poll was generated and kept active for so long even though the numbers pretty much took their final form after the first week. In response to that you concocted this ridiculous example in which people who supported keeping the thread are implicitly linked to those supporting slavery. That link is there regardless of how much you preface your scenario, and that's what RyZ was taking issue with.

There are (were) good arguments to be made for getting rid of the thread, none of which involve reaching for over the top parallels to slavery or any other real world example of minority oppression.

MarchHare made no comparison between people supporting thread and people supporting slavery.

The point was that sometimes the results of a poll don't dictate right and wrong. Reaching in order to distort that point and make it less relevant does nothing to benefit anyone.

It's still a very good point, and a very good argument, even with a few people purposely distorting the point.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Meh. I figured it would happen sooner or later.

[taco.vidal]

Dont think it was proven or concluded the YLYL thread was wrong. It did become clear a few posters had problems with it and that the thread impacted their ability to use the forum.

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

MarchHare made no comparison between people supporting thread and people supporting slavery.

The point was that sometimes the results of a poll don't dictate right and wrong. Reaching in order to distort that point and make it less relevant does nothing to benefit anyone.

It's still a very good point, and a very good argument, even with a few people purposely distorting the point.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolute 14
Slippery slope fallacy FTW!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
It's pretty much the only defence I've seen against the decision made.

Disagree, obviously. It boils down to a freedom of expression/censorship argument in my mind. I think that is a valid point of view.

Exclaiming "Slippery slope!" is equivalent to what I am hearing as the counter argument (not sure if it is yours), "Who will think of the children!?" [Insert Flanders/Simpsons pic here]

[Eastern Girl]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

While obvious sarcasm, this is actually a pretty succinct summary of the last month of the off-topic forum.

No, I don't think it is a succinct summary of what we did. We were asked our opinions and we gave them. I didn't report anyone that said I was being whiny. I didn't report anyone that said I was inventing problems on the board. I didn't report anyone that said that I was imagining things or exaggerating the problem. I didn't ignore posts. I responded to them, and somewhat reasonably, I think. It's unfair that our side of the argument was classified as whining.

As an aside, what should we have done? We don't speak up and the problem persists. We speak up and we are told we are just a loud, whiny, vocal minority.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

Dont think it was proven or concluded the YLYL thread was wrong. It did become clear a few posters had problems with it and that the thread impacted their ability to use the forum.

Agreed, and perhaps it's my turn to have been misunderstood as I wasn't suggesting that the thread had been proven wrong, but rather that a majority in support of keeping it did not absolve it of any wrong.

[dammage79]

After reading the OP I find that the decision to close the thread was a weak and over reactionary attempt at sending a message that things are about to change. For one, the thread itself was not the issue, just became a focal point of a discussion of a much darker and broader theme that has been developing on CP during it's growth.

Cp has grown big, maybe too big for the small mod team that may have not imagined that it would get this big. So adding more Mods is a definite step in the right direction.
Addressing the bigger issues here like sexism and opinions that are outdated certainly takes time and a ton of effort and not something that so few can take on while having a life in real time.

So why do I see closing the thread as ineffectual? Instead of actually doing your jobs you took the easy way out. I said this before in the other thread and I stand by it.

It's a band aid action for a gaping open wound and no matter how hard you try, eliminating that thread will do nothing to curb the off handed sexist remarks.

Some will say "well, it's a start." but it's really not. The supporters of the thread (poll blah blah blah) are now without a part of the community that they enjoyed and participated in with maturity and responsibly. Through 2 iterations without so much as a peep.

The thread was not the issue, it's the posters you allow on your site that effect how women are treated and if you REALLY wanted to make this community feel more inclusive, you wouldn't take things away but actually get rid of the problem itself and that would be the people who ruin things like that.

But that's why your adding more mods, to moderate more than what your team can handle at the moment. And that's a good thing.

But good job everyone! Censorship wins!

[Eastern Girl]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Disagree, obviously. It boils down to a freedom of expression/censorship argument in my mind. I think that is a valid point of view.

Exclaiming "Slippery slope!" is equivalent to what I am hearing as the counter argument (not sure if it is yours), "Who will think of the children!?" [Insert Flanders/Simpsons pic here]

I wasn't trying to trample anyone's rights. I enjoy freedom of expression. I don't enjoy censorship. I am a pretty laid back chick. (See how laid back I am? I said chick when I could have said woman or girl. Super chill)

Having said that, we were asked for our opinions. I expressed my belief that the thread encouraged a particular behaviour and led to sexism outside the thread. I don't have concrete evidence of this, that is correct. None of us really have any evidence for either side, because we didn't conduct science-y experiments to determine the root causes of some of these pervasive sexist comments. I offered my viewpoint and my experience, which is all any of us could do.

I wasn't really rallying to have the whole thread taken down, though I did vote for that option. The entirety of my argument was merely to get people to think before they post.

Also - I am not asking about who will think of the children. I barely like children, or at least ones not related to me.

[photon]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

My concern is that there now must be a clear definition of what can or can not be tolerated. I'm afraid this will result in people using this as a tool when disagreements arise, such as on religious and mental health topics.

Fair comment, and I think it's addressed in the OP. We are working on clearer guidelines in this respect, but as with anything the clearer you make the guidelines the clearer the ways to subvert them.

Maybe a better way is clearer intent. Our intent is to, in the same way we try not to foster racism or homophobia, is to not foster sexism.

But we are working on better wording, though myself I'd like to have any new moderators we add in place already before we do that, just because it'd be nice to have more input from those that'll be the ones looking for it.

And there'll be revisions as we go, just like there's always been.

I don't think you need to fear about posting though. Without clearer guidelines we're not going to all of a suddenly crack down, and when the clearer guidelines come, we're still not going to suddenly crack down, it'll be more warnings if anything to start.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Eastern Girl

I wasn't trying to trample anyone's rights. I enjoy freedom of expression. I don't enjoy censorship. I am a pretty laid back chick. (See how laid back I am? I said chick when I could have said woman or girl. Super chill)

Having said that, we were asked for our opinions. I expressed my belief that the thread encouraged a particular behaviour and led to sexism outside the thread. I don't have concrete evidence of this, that is correct. None of us really have any evidence for either side, because we didn't conduct science-y experiments to determine the root causes of some of these pervasive sexist comments. I offered my viewpoint and my experience, which is all any of us could do.

I wasn't really rallying to have the whole thread taken down, though I did vote for that option. The entirety of my argument was merely to get people to think before they post.

Also - I am not asking about who will think of the children. I barely like children, or at least ones not related to me.

I totally agree with what you have said (super chill!). I like having this discussion and value your opinion because it seems very sincere and forthright. This is why I favour keeping threads open and not banning members, unless it is for truly offensive behaviour. Really just looking for a response from Chill Crosby (not as chill!) who exclaimed that slippery slope is the only argument out there.

I prefer to keep the discussion open, rather than shutting something down for fear of offending.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Should we ban the thread or the commenter?

Most of the time the commenter, but sometimes a thread is beyond redemption and not worth the effort or the very nature of it makes it a non-starter.

In the case of the YLYL thread there's a case to be made that the pictures themselves and the fact they're in a thread dedicated to such pictures is objectification of women (and that was explored to some degree in the poll thread), personally that's why I ultimately supported removing the thread; the thread, pictures, context, etc as a whole are sexist IMO.

Originally Posted by dammage79

So why do I see closing the thread as ineffectual? Instead of actually doing your jobs you took the easy way out. I said this before in the other thread and I stand by it.

How can it be ineffectual since the intended effect of closing the thread isn't to address an issue? It doesn't sound like you read the OP. "However, we want to emphasize that this is not just about this thread... We think some broader changes/improvements are needed. " You have it backwards, we didn't remove the thread to address the issue, the issues mean new guidelines that the thread doesn't fit in.

Our "jobs"? When do we get paid?

Originally Posted by dammage79

It's a band aid action for a gaping open wound and no matter how hard you try, eliminating that thread will do nothing to curb the off handed sexist remarks.

Good thing we didn't expect it to.

Originally Posted by dammage79

But good job everyone! Censorship wins!

Moderation is synonymous with censorship, we've been censoring things for over a decade. SURPRISE!

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Disagree, obviously. It boils down to a freedom of expression/censorship argument in my mind. I think that is a valid point of view.

A valid point of view, yes. But not an entitlement. CP is a private forum, and as such, its operators have the right to set whatever limits they choose on the community's privilege of expression.

Exclaiming "Slippery slope!" is equivalent to what I am hearing as the counter argument (not sure if it is yours), "Who will think of the children!?" [Insert Flanders/Simpsons pic here]

I mentioned the slippery slope fallacy in response to the people arguing that this gives anyone offended by anything the ability to have threads shut down.

In the end, I would feel very confident that the ultimate change to the forum will be minimal. Hot chick sitting behind the bench at a game? Guys watching on TV are going to comment and joke. Ditto our female members when a hot guy is shown, or Lundqvist does a spread for GQ. Those examples, however, are normal discourse with limited spans that will usually be commented on and forgotten faster than a 4chan post. The issues lie with threads intended to have a lasting impact - which ylyl did - and which creates an ongoing cultural issue where a large percentage of the forum's membership was made to feel uncomfortable, and therefore unwelcome, on the basis of their being female.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by photon

Most of the time the commenter, but sometimes a thread is beyond redemption and not worth the effort or the very nature of it makes it a non-starter.

In the case of the YLYL thread there's a case to be made that the pictures themselves and the fact they're in a thread dedicated to such pictures is objectification of women (and that was explored to some degree in the poll thread), personally that's why I ultimately supported removing the thread; the thread, pictures, context, etc as a whole are sexist IMO.



How can it be ineffectual since the intended effect of closing the thread isn't to address an issue? It doesn't sound like you read the OP. "However, we want to emphasize that this is not just about this thread... We think some broader changes/improvements are needed. " You have it backwards, we didn't remove the thread to address the issue, the issues mean new guidelines that the thread doesn't fit in.

Our "jobs"? When do we get paid?



Good thing we didn't expect it to.

But tell me this, would the thread have been closed at all if it was not brought up in the gay teen thread? Likely not. because it was not an issue before that. Like I said, it's lived 2 iterations on this site without so much as a peep. So yes, I do think the purpose of closing the thread was a reaction to the topic of sexism and was axed in a move to show "initiative". Kind of plain to see when you're not convoluding things. And there was certainly an expectation that you would be presenting by closing the thread. Again, to show the community you're serving notice that CP is changing directions. (Either Directly or indirrectly that you are attempting to address the topic of Sexism). Said yourself your personal view is that the thread was sexist.

Are you not THE moderators on this site? Just because you volunteer your time and don't get paid for it does not mean it is not a job. It's a job you choose to do for free. Seems your aim here was to turn that comment into a negative, it wasn't.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by dammage79

But tell me this, would the thread have been closed at all if it was not brought up in the gay teen thread? Likely not. because it was not an issue before that. Like I said, it's lived 2 iterations on this site without so much as a peep.

Kind of a weird comment. Would gay marriage have been legalized if it had never been brought up? Likely not. But it was brought up. Just like sexism on this forum, and that led to discussion and discussion led to this.

The good news is; There's still millions of half naked girl pics on the internet and Calgarypuck takes a step towards being more inclusive. Everybody wins, no?

[Eastern Girl]

Originally Posted by dammage79

But tell me this, would the thread have been closed at all if it was not brought up in the gay teen thread? Likely not. because it was not an issue before that. Like I said, it's lived 2 iterations on this site without so much as a peep. So yes, I do think the purpose of closing the thread was a reaction to the topic of sexism and was axed in a move to show "initiative". Kind of plain to see when you're not convoluding things. And there was certainly an expectation that you would be presenting by closing the thread. Again, to show the community you're serving notice that CP is changing directions. (Either Directly or indirrectly that you are attempting to address the topic of Sexism). Said yourself your personal view is that the thread was sexist.

Are you not THE moderators on this site? Just because you volunteer your time and don't get paid for it does not mean it is not a job. It's a job you choose to do for free. Seems your aim here was to turn that comment into a negative, it wasn't.

We didn't just suddenly decide there was sexism on the board and that it began and ended with the YLYL thread. I just never really spoke up about it, or at least not much, because it was sometimes just written off as being too PC or sensitive. I've held my tongue for a number of years. There was a time I posted considerably less than I had in the past because it was just so pervasive. It was easier to ignore than argue.

I am sure when Photon split that thread, he had no idea he was opening the flood gates, but he gave us an opportunity. I appreciated that he asked what we thought. I felt like just being asked, in and of itself, was a huge step forward.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Kind of a weird comment. Would gay marriage have been legalized if it had never been brought up? Likely not. But it was brought up. Just like sexism on this forum, and that led to discussion and discussion led to this.

Not Weird at all. It was a legitimate question to confirm that the thread was close directly with the debate that has taken place recently. you responding with another topic does nothing to this conversation.

Sexism was brought up and thusly a correlating action was taken to close a thread that's existed perfectly fine in its own little corner for years. For the mods to say it had nothing at all to with the recent discussion of the topic is the problem. Because it's BS.

Still does not save the fact Censoring it does nothing to curb the issue at hand. Nor will it.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Eastern Girl

We didn't just suddenly decide there was sexism on the board and that it began and ended with the YLYL thread. I just never really spoke up about it, or at least not much, because it was sometimes just written off as being too PC or sensitive. I've held my tongue for a number of years. There was a time I posted considerably less than I had in the past because it was just so pervasive. It was easier to ignore than argue.

I am sure when Photon split that thread, he had no idea he was opening the flood gates, but he gave us an opportunity. I appreciated that he asked what we thought. I felt like just being asked, in and of itself, was a huge step forward.

It's good you found a way to speak up. There's nothing wrong with that. Sexism needs to be addressed in a far more assertive manner than what has been done here today. In no way am I in disagreement with you. I do find it unfortunate that you felt that until recently there was no avenue for you to address your concerns. Just goes to show how far CP has to go I suppose.

Closing the thread isn't the answer though. At least in my humble opinion.

But, what is done is done.