Stay classy, Mens Rights Edmonton

[photon]

Originally Posted by handgroen

i voted that i had been, but to be fair, in my case it was an ex-girlfriend of a year or so saying she would claim rape if i broke up with her, there was no specific instance at all.She didn't go through with it and i was never accused, but the issue arose for me and so i voted yes.

Telling someone that I'm going to rape them isn't as bad as actually raping them, but I still think it's abusive and harmful to the person.

In your case being threatened with false accusation of rape isn't as bad as being falsely accused of rape, but it's still abusive and harmful, so maybe counts as 1/2 a vote or something.

How crazy is that though... taking an action that would destroy any hope of having a relationship to try and save a relationship?? That doesn't make any sense on any level.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by photon

How crazy is that though... taking an action that would destroy any hope of having a relationship to try and save a relationship?? That doesn't make any sense on any level.

"I love you so much that I will ruin your life."

[handgroen]

Originally Posted by rubecube

"I love you so much that I will ruin your life."

hopeless romantic

pun intended

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Anyone else find it weird that dudes on CP claim they've been falsely accused of sexual assault 6x-12x higher than the estimated average?

Not everyone on CP is voting.

People who have been falsely accussed are probably:

1) more drawn to this thread; and
2) more likely to vote.

Many posters on CP are ignoring this thread. Many who open it probably can't be bothered to vote.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think most people share this view, men and women but that statement and similar ones always feel to me like women blaming all men rather than blaming ther perpatrator. You might not be intending to say this but this is how I read it.

I get frusterated in these types of discussions when men as a gender are blamed for rape and rape culture. Men as a gender arent to blame for rape. Rapists are to blame for rape.

I'm definitely not blaming the gender. But I think so much of the discussion is around women "protecting" themselves from rape. Like, don't walk alone at night. Don't have too much to drink. And don't you dare wear revealing clothes, while walking alone at night, after having one too many drinks. On and on it goes. And our children too. Don't talk to strangers. Don't walk home alone. Learn about your private parts when you're 3 years old so that if someone assaults you, you can correctly identify anatomy to a police officer (and for those of you without children, this is seriously what parents are instructed to do now to help reduce your child's vulnerability to being sexually abused).

But much of the discussion needs to start with WHY is rape happening in the first place? It's rapists. (as you say yourself) And that leads me, at least, to the larger questions of what is happening in our society to lead some men down the path of being violent and/or committing sexual assault. Women have these messages about how to "protect" themselves drilled into their heads from a very young age. Fine. But the way to stop rape is for rapists to stop raping people. I'm not sure what the messaging needs to be or how to start the change, but women are doing basically as much as they can to protect themselves and the statistics on sexual assault are not going down.

And whoever said my views were ridiculous well... I'm truly sorry you feel that way. I do believe that an 8 year old being raped in park in NW Calgary has a much bigger impact on that young girls life, and on her family's life, than a false rape accusation does on a grown man's life and his family's life. I just do. Maybe because I'm a woman. Maybe because I'm a mother. Probably both combined. Maybe nobody was really equating the false accusations with rape and I misinterpreted things entirely.

Flameswin - I did retract my "shove it" because really... I don't feel that way. And I know it's a dumb thing to say. I just get really upset about issues of violence and rape perpetrated against women, children, gay men, straight men. Everybody. Why do people have to do these things? I just don't understand. And it makes me sad and angry.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Peanut

I'm definitely not blaming the gender. But I think so much of the discussion is around women "protecting" themselves from rape. Like, don't walk alone at night. Don't have too much to drink. And don't you dare wear revealing clothes, while walking alone at night, after having one too many drinks. On and on it goes. And our children too. Don't talk to strangers. Don't walk home alone. Learn about your private parts when you're 3 years old so that if someone assaults you, you can correctly identify anatomy to a police officer (and for those of you without children, this is seriously what parents are instructed to do now. You apparently can't convict these pedos if your child only has a nickname for penis or vagina and can't properly identify the anatomy).

But much of the discussion needs to start with WHY is rape happening in the first place? It's rapists. (as you say yourself) And that leads me, at least, to the larger questions of what is happening in our society to lead some men down the path of being violent and/or committing sexual assault.

And whoever said my views were ridiculous well... I'm truly sorry you feel that way. I do believe that an 8 year old being raped in park in NW Calgary has a much bigger impact on that young girls life, and on her family's life, than a false rape accusation does on a grown man's life and his family's life. I just do. Maybe because I'm a woman. Maybe because I'm a mother. Probably both combined.

Do you have something to back that up, because that's pretty out there.

As for the rest of your post, you continue to treat this as if it's an either or situation. Addressing the fact that a false accusation is a serious issue doesn't diminish rape or avoid questions on the root societal issues involved, it's simply one part of the bigger problem. Does discussing breast cancer diminish colon cancer? Of course not, they are different aspects of a larger issue. Those posters are ridiculous, but there's no reason that people of both genders can't have an intelligent conversation about the topic of false accusations without being treated as if they are minimizing rape.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by valo403

Do you have something to back that up, because that's pretty out there.

As for the rest of your post, you continue to treat this as if it's an either or situation. Addressing the fact that a false accusation is a serious issue doesn't diminish rape or avoid questions on the root societal issues involved, it's simply one part of the bigger problem. Does discussing breast cancer diminish colon cancer? Of course not, they are different aspects of a larger issue. Those posters are ridiculous, but there's no reason that people of both genders can't have an intelligent conversation about the topic of false accusations without being treated as if they are minimizing rape.

Sorry, I think I was wrong. I remember reading it somewhere but not sure where. I'll edit that part out unless I can find the source.

I checked the little warriors website and they do tell you to teach kids the correct terms starting as early as possible, but their basis is that it fosters better communication and decreases a child's vulnerability to a sexual assault if they are educated about their own bodies.

http://littlewarriors.ca/prevention/...n-information/

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Peanut

But I think so much of the discussion is around women "protecting" themselves from rape.

Regarding this discussion, and not talking about your point specifically, I've seen this called 'victim-blaming' (example) and it really isn't.

It's not victim-blaming to tell people to look for cars before crossing the street. Sure, it's the driver's responsibility not to hit you, but you still take precautions to protect yourself.

I believe that discouraging people from protecting themselves and discouraging people from telling others to protect themselves is actually harmful and dangerous.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by SebC

It's not victim-blaming to tell people to look for cars before crossing the street. Sure, it's the driver's responsibility not to hit you, but you still take precautions to protect yourself.

I believe that discouraging people from protecting themselves and discouraging people from telling others to protect themselves is actually harmful and dangerous.

But it is painfully sad, and disgusting, that women need to have these thoughts of protecting themselves.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by SebC

It's not victim-blaming to tell people to look for cars before crossing the street. Sure, it's the driver's responsibility not to hit you, but you still take precautions to protect yourself.

No, it's not "victim blaming" to tell people to look for cars before crossing the street.

It would be "victim blaming" when some guy is run over in the street intentionally by a driver and we respond with "he should have crossed faster", which of course nobody would ever say.

It is the equivalent of saying "she shouldn't have been wearing a short skirt" or "she shouldn't have been at that party" about a victim of sexual assault, and we hear that all the time.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by SebC

Regarding this discussion, and not talking about your point specifically, I've seen this called 'victim-blaming' (example) and it really isn't.

It's not victim-blaming to tell people to look for cars before crossing the street. Sure, it's the driver's responsibility not to hit you, but you still take precautions to protect yourself.

I believe that discouraging people from protecting themselves and discouraging people from telling others to protect themselves is actually harmful and dangerous.

I don't think anyone is discouraging people from protecting themselves, but it's shameful that women have to worry about what they wear, how much they drink, etc. The reality also is that these things are a factor in only a minority of sexual assault cases. It's ridiculous to expect women to be on guard at all times for sexual predators. The more reasonable approach is going after the predators themselves and trying to resolve the root of these issues.

The other issue with this is that it does lead to passive victim-blaming. Women shouldn't have to address what they were wearing, what they've consumed, etc. They just shouldn't get raped.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I don't think anyone is discouraging people from protecting themselves, but it's shameful that women have to worry about what they wear, how much they drink, etc. The reality also is that these things are a factor in only a minority of sexual assault cases. It's ridiculous to expect women to be on guard at all times for sexual predators. The more reasonable approach is going after the predators themselves and trying to resolve the root of these issues.

The other issue with this is that it does lead to passive victim-blaming. Women shouldn't have to address what they were wearing, what they've consumed, etc. They just shouldn't get raped.

An even more reasonable approach would be to reach young boys to treat people with respect and dignity. A new stream in pop culture.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Not falsely I haven't.

Spoiler!

Not correctly either though.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Peanut

And whoever said my views were ridiculous well... I'm truly sorry you feel that way. I do believe that an 8 year old being raped in park in NW Calgary has a much bigger impact on that young girls life, and on her family's life, than a false rape accusation does on a grown man's life and his family's life. I just do. Maybe because I'm a woman. Maybe because I'm a mother. Probably both combined. Maybe nobody was really equating the false accusations with rape and I misinterpreted things entirely.

That was me, and I stand by it. Saying that men who are concerned with the issue of false rape can "shove it" because worse things happen in society is ridiculous. In my view, murder is worse than rape and/or sexual assault, but I would never suggest that those attempting to gain awareness and positive traction with these issues should "shove it".

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by pylon

I didn't say a frikkin word about it for a long time. At the time I didn't want the cops involved even though I did nothing wrong, I didn't even tell my girlfriend at the time. It was as simple as the second a woman accuses a man of rape, your life could be over even if you did nothing wrong. It was easier to just pay to fix my car, than have to deal with a total nutcase.

Now I look back at how absurd the whole scenario was, and laugh at it. But it was definitely not funny to me then.

I had a close friend of mine in a custody dispute, have an ex wife fabricate abuse claims against him to win custody, and win a massive alimony and child support claim. The son wanted nothing more than to be with his dad, and the mother couldn't stand that fact as she was a horrible, violent parent, so she pulled the abuse card against him. He used to come to my house hiding from her when she was flipping out, and she would come over and scream at him though my front door, and punch the crap out of him when he came out. He was too embarrassed to call the cops, and too worried to lose his son if he reported her. 9 years later his son is now 16, the mother abandoned him, and fled the country back to South America, and he finally got retribution in the fact he no longer has to support her. But she destroyed his life with a massive lie, and destroyed his reputation by accusing him of being a wife beater, when he never was. But the judge took her at her word. But the guy lost opportunities and and is the saddest, beat down by life person I know.

I am not defending for one second people that actually do rape women. And I am not saying that there are more false accusations than not. But being involved in such a bizarre scenario as a young man, and seeing what happened to my buddy definitely made me be extremely careful on how I have interacted with women over the years. And I will be honest, it made me a lot less trusting of them.

And do you know why judges favor women in custody cases? Because patriarchal society claims that women are the gender better with children. Women get preferential treatment in those cases because the assumption, automatically, is that women's main goal in life is child-rearing, so they're better at it, so they should get the kids.

Originally Posted by rubecube

I don't think anyone is discouraging people from protecting themselves, but it's shameful that women have to worry about what they wear, how much they drink, etc. The reality also is that these things are a factor in only a minority of sexual assault cases. It's ridiculous to expect women to be on guard at all times for sexual predators. The more reasonable approach is going after the predators themselves and trying to resolve the root of these issues.

The other issue with this is that it does lead to passive victim-blaming. Women shouldn't have to address what they were wearing, what they've consumed, etc. They just shouldn't get raped.

When a guy gets too drunk, he might get a wang drawn on his face, or wake up in a puddle of his own vomit. If he's walking around without a shirt on in public, no one bats an eye. If a girl drinks too much she might get raped (and then blamed for it--she should have protected herself!), if she was showing too much cleavage or a little too much leg, she's asking for negative attention, etc.

...Just to clarify, I wasn't arguing against anything you said, Rubecube. Just fleshing the thought out farther.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I don't think anyone is discouraging people from protecting themselves, but it's shameful that women have to worry about what they wear, how much they drink, etc. The reality also is that these things are a factor in only a minority of sexual assault cases.

Agreed, but as you said, in a minority of sexual assault cases (which are the ones "don't be that guy" is about), it's reality. To shun those who inform women of that reality by calling them "victim-blamers" is, again, harmful. Ideally, getting black-out drunk wouldn't increase your risk of getting raped. But it does, so the smart thing to do is to consider the risks if you decide to do that, and you can't consider them if the information is taboo.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Peanut

And whoever said my views were ridiculous well... I'm truly sorry you feel that way. I do believe that an 8 year old being raped in park in NW Calgary has a much bigger impact on that young girls life, and on her family's life, than a false rape accusation does on a grown man's life and his family's life. I just do. Maybe because I'm a woman. Maybe because I'm a mother. Probably both combined. Maybe nobody was really equating the false accusations with rape and I misinterpreted things entirely.

I agree with your sentiments completely except for the bolded....that, im sorry to tell you, is not only mind bogglingly ridiculous, its 100% wrong.

A guy I had known most of my life went through this situation about 15 years ago. To the extent of a trial and conviction etc... it was later learned the whole thing was a false claim and nithing but a coverup for some young lady who was hiding something else she didnt want her parents to know.

Not only did it destroy his family in the mean time....he ended up taking his own life because of it.

So I suggest you rethink your stance and ask yourself if his wife and children dont think its as big an impact on their lives as that of the little 8 year old girl and so many like her through time.

Both are equally devastating and heinous.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Section 271 creates the offence of sexual assault, but it does not define sexual assault. However, the courts have defined sexual assault as an assault under s. 265(1) committed in circumstances of a sexual nature such as to violate the sexual integrity of the complainant.

Originally Posted by Makarov

I just provided the definition. Obviously it is not clear how that definition applies to each and every circumstance, but such is the case with every single definition (legal or otherwise.)

I would suggest that it is less clear than most legal definitions that judges are called upon to apply. An assault of a "sexual nature" that harms "sexual integrity"? Well, that's a pretty blurry line.

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't know, I'd say he voted correctly. By saying she would claim he raped her she was pretty much falsely accusing him, not broadcasting it to more people doesn't change that.

I think this is probably fudging the statistics both on percentages of false accusations and also of under-reported rape. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the actual recorded instances of false accusation - i.e. where it actually goes so far as to have someone make a record of it - are less prevalent than the accusation being made privately. I would imagine that if a person wants to falsely accuse someone of assault (i.e. in order to effect a social consequence, like giving that person a free pass for a bad decision to sleep with someone), they would be less inclined to actually pursue the thing through to a prosecution.

Basically what I'm saying is that, intuitively, there must be some not-insignificant error bars on those stats.

As for my own anecdotal experience, I voted no. I did know a girl who accused a guy she was rooming with of sexual assault - privately, to a couple of friends, including me. We urged her to go to the authorities and make sure the guy couldn't harm anyone else. Eventually it came out that she had fabricated it.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I agree with your sentiments completely except for the bolded....that, im sorry to tell you, is not only mind bogglingly ridiculous, its 100% wrong.

A guy I had known most of my life went through this situation about 15 years ago. To the extent of a trial and conviction etc... it was later learned the whole thing was a false claim and nithing but a coverup for some young lady who was hiding something else she didnt want her parents to know.

Not only did it destroy his family in the mean time....he ended up taking his own life because of it.

So I suggest you rethink your stance and ask yourself if his wife and children dont think its as big an impact on their lives as that of the little 8 year old girl and so many like her through time.

Both are equally devastating and heinous.

What was his name? Canada has had relatively few cases of wrongful conviction. It is an issue that I am quite passionate about (I volunteer my time with the Association in Defence of the Wrongly Convicted) and I would like to learn more about his story. Did it receive media attention?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I would suggest that it is less clear than most legal definitions that judges are called upon to apply. An assault of a "sexual nature" that harms "sexual integrity"? Well, that's a pretty blurry line.

In fact, the element of "sexual nature" is the seldom the triable issue. The most contentious issues are almost always whether there was any touching (i.e., did the complained of behaviour take place at all), was there consent, and did the accused take all reasonable steps.