Pornography, “Family Values”, and a Sexually Liberal Society

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Originally Posted by bcsoda

The issue of porn and the issue of masturbation need to be separated. I have no issues with masturbation, but I do have issues with porn, and you can't just chalk it up to self-esteem issues.

I wasn't trying to chalk it up to self-esteem issues, I was only giving an example of a possible unreasonable reason a partner might have an issue with porn (and there are reasonable reasons too). That's why the point I was trying to emphasize was communication. If one partner has a problem with the other partner viewing porn, there has to be a reason behind it, and discussing things to get to the real reason is far more productive than just making a non-communicative stand.

Originally Posted by bcsoda

I think porn is incredibly sexist, misogynistic, and demeaning to women. Women in pornography are very rarely treated with what I would consider respect.

And I find any porn like that a complete turn off. If I only got off on porn where the women were demeaned then yeah that might be a flag for my partner to dig a bit more into my personality before deciding to commit to something deeper.

There is a ton of porn geared towards couples, educational series, etc where it's about enjoyment for everyone rather than just the typical stuff you find in an adult video store, and it can be something that either both partners can enjoy together, or if one is concerned with the kind of thing you bring up then that can be resolved by choosing stuff that isn't offensive to the other partner.

It's a bit of an aside but knowing what someone who enjoys that kind of porn where it seems to be more about dominance than eroticism thinks and how they find it enjoyable would be interesting.

Originally Posted by bcsoda

Porn isn't just a fantasy. Fantasy is defined as something that you imagine. Porn is real women and real men performing explicit sexual acts that have been filmed for you to watch. Its not something you came up with in your head, or something you read in a book that described something that you then pictured, or even something alluded to in a movie that your mind then continued on, it's actually watching these physical actions being performed. That's not a fantasy.

Just because it's not a book or imagination doesn't mean it isn't a fantasy. A couple might enjoy porn of certain situations or scenarios that they don't actually do in real life.. that's what makes it a fantasy.

It's like watching an action movie or a romantic movie or any other movie that creates a fantasy situation for enjoyment. Even though the guy getting shot in an action movie is as real as I will probably ever experience I don't think it demeans human life, and even though the romantic movie just setup a romantic situation that is 100x more romantic than I could ever contrive to be I don't think that necessarily sets up an unrealistic expectation in my relationship (though I think that that is a definite possibility just like abuse of porn could setup unrealistic expectations).

[Daradon]

I would argue that the men in pornography get treated just as bad as the women. The result may be sexist imagery, which I agree happens, but the actual act of it is just as demeaning to men as women. They're all actors and they all know what's going to happen beforehand.

Funny enough, the women generally get paid double what the men make, so read into that what you will.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I do think it is a problem. Lust is an opposite of love, just as hate is an opposite of love.

Therefore, lust destroys loving relationships that are foundational to our society.

All may not be affected to the same extent, but speaking in general terms, it is harmful.

Completely disagree. A loving relationship needs some lust or it will can issues in the bedroom. They are not opposites at all and both are needed IMO.

[Daradon]

Agree lust is a good thing in the right circumstances and that it's not an opposite of love at all.

I don't even think 'hate' is an opposite of love. Most philosophers muse that apathy is the true opposite of love. Hate is very passionate, like love, and is always directed at someone or something you care about. If you didn't care about it, you would be uninterested, apathetic, not hateful.

A bit of an aside, I guess. Continue.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Sexual controls need to be put into place in order to have a functioning economy/civilization. This is what monogamous marriage is for.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Logically and morally, I have no problem with my girlfriend being with other men, but I've been socially conditioned to have an involuntary jealous reaction to the mere thought of it.

You think mate guarding is "socially conditioned"?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Sexual controls need to be put into place in order to have a functioning economy/civilization. This is what monogamous marriage is for.

And what exactly are you basing this on? I don't exactly see Sweden or other sexually-liberal Scandinavian countries descending into anarchy.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

You think mate guarding is "socially conditioned"?

Fair enough, but it's still somewhat irrational. We don't live in an era where our mating selections are supremely limited.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by rubecube

And what exactly are you basing this on? I don't exactly see Sweden or other sexually-liberal Scandinavian countries descending into anarchy.

....not yet.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

....not yet.

I wouldn't hold my breath. This isn't a recent development in those countries, and they certainly aren't trending in that direction. Our sexually-repressed neighbours to the South, however...

EDIT: Actually take a look at evman's post. We definitely see more violence and general social-disorder in countries were sexuality is repressed or demonized.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Fair enough, but it's still somewhat irrational. We don't live in an era where our mating selections are supremely limited.

No, but economics are limited, and marriage and economics are closely linked.

http://no-maam.blogspot.ca/2008/02/q...ave-right.html

I found this so interesting.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

No, but economics are limited, and marriage and economics are closely linked.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you speaking on a personal financial level, or society-wide?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

No, but economics are limited, and marriage and economics are closely linked.

http://no-maam.blogspot.ca/2008/02/q...ave-right.html

I found this so interesting.

I'm not surprised. I got to about here, and then started laughing and closed my browser:

Yes, herd living is true Communism where all is shared and they all get fat or starve together. Ever wonder why women tend to all think the same way and why they desire big, Socialist government over individualism and freedom?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I wouldn't hold my breath. This isn't a recent development in those countries, and they certainly aren't trending in that direction. Our sexually-repressed neighbours to the South, however...

EDIT: Actually take a look at evman's post. We definitely see more violence and general social-disorder in countries were sexuality is repressed or demonized.

Sweden, and most Western nations now have a below replacement level of fertility. The magic number is 2.1 children per woman to maintain a stable population. The low fertility is a result of sexual liberation and feminism.

Immigration covers this fact up. Without it, the west would have a declining population.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by rubecube

EDIT: Actually take a look at evman's post. We definitely see more violence and general social-disorder in countries were sexuality is repressed or demonized.

So you agree prostitution should be legal and regulated?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

So you agree prostitution should be legal and regulated?

Yep.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I'm not surprised. I got to about here, and then started laughing and closed my browser:

So he's an anti-commie.......big deal. There are many gold nuggets in there that our modern society is largely unaware of.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Sweden, and most Western nations now have a below replacement level of fertility. The magic number is 2.1 children per woman to maintain a stable population. The low fertility is a result of sexual liberation and feminism.

Immigration covers this fact up. Without it, the west would have a declining population.

I think there are a number of mitigating factors for why there is a decline in the birthrate. Secularization, improved health care, urbanization, academia, etc. Tacking it all onto feminism is totally ridiculous.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

The low fertility is a result of sexual liberation and feminism.

Reference.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

So he's an anti-commie.......big deal. There are many gold nuggets in there that our modern society is largely unaware of.

That really wasn't the part that struck me. It was more the "ALL women think this way," section.