Pornography, “Family Values”, and a Sexually Liberal Society

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think your thought processes of how sex works are changed by watching porn and this can change how you view sex from an act of intimacy to just a physical act.

I'm not sure that I buy this. I will grant that pornography produces a fantasy world of consequence-free sex in the form of pure, physical gratification, but the vast majority of people are capable of detecting and correctly decoding fantasy as wholly other than reality. There is no reason why one cannot enjoy the the fantasy at one moment, and then form healthy intimate sexual relationships in the next that are certainly even more gratifying. I'm not convinced that this is an "either / or" situation.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

That's fine for a group of nomad humans, living in a hostile environment. However, as the population increases, I believe you have to have more structure in society to create stability, and religion has provided most of that structure to date.


I believe the sexually liberal society which has been influenced by the sexual revolution, of which pornography (particularly hard core) is a part, is not going to cause the downfall of humanity, however I believe it is a contributing factor in many of the problems in todays society. Some of the changes I see are:

- the tendendy of the young to form uncommitted commonlaw relationships in spite of potential legal, emotional, and childbirth hazards.

- increase in teen pregnancies

- increase in fatherless children

- increase in number of grandparents raising children

- virginity looked down upon

- increase in sex during first date

- reducing the sanctity of marriage

- increase in std's. etc.

I believe Western Society is starting to suffer to a degree because of the relaxation is basic ethics and morals that guide society. As evidenced not only in changes in the family, but also in business etc.

It's not easy to pin point the causes and how they all relate to each other. I believe it's the complex interpay of rising population, rising affluence, sexual attitudes, drugs, advances in technology, movement away from religion, etc.

In my opinion, there has never been a more important time in our history where society is more in need of the morals and ethics that come from religion and other sources. I think without the ability of humans to find some way of periodically recalibrating their moral and ethical compasses, they have a tendency to drift off course.

I can fully appreciate all the problems caused in the name of religion today, but to ignore or discount all the good it has done, and abandon it altogether is akin to "throwing out the baby with the bath water". I believe the answer is to participate in it, and influence the changes that bring it up to date, so that it can provide a more positive and guiding influence in society.

I'm late to this thread, so I apologize if this posting misses the mark, but your post reminded me of this:

Body Pleasure and the Origin of Violence
James W. Prescott, Neuropsychologist
Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, p. 10, November, 1975.

.
"The neuro-psychologist, James W. Prescott, has performed a startling cross-cultural analysis of 400 pre-industrial societies and found that cultures that lavish physical affection on infants tend to be disinclined to violence. Even societies without notable fondling of infants develop non-violent adults, provided sexual activity in adolescents is not repressed. Prescott believes that cultures with a predisposition for violence are composed of individuals that have been deprived — at least during one of two critical stages in life, infancy and adolescence — of the pleasures of the body. Where physical affection is encouraged, theft, organized religion, and individual displays of wealth are inconspicuous; where infants are physically punished, there tends to be slavery, frequent killing, torture and mutilation of enemies, a devotion to the inferiority of women, and a belief in one or more supernatural beings who intervene in daily life.

We do not understand human behavior well enough to be sure of the mechanisms underlying these relationships, although we can conjecture. But the correlations are significant. Prescott writes: “The percent likelihood of a society becoming physically violent if it is physically affectionate toward its infants and tolerant of premarital sexual behavior is 2 percent. The probability of this relationship occurring by chance is 125,000 to one. I am not aware of any other developmental variable that has such a high degree of predictive validity.”

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Oh I agree completely. I know for me, I couldn't handle the idea of my girlfriend sleeping with other guys. I get jealous enough when she talks about an ex. That being said, I know that how I feel is likely socially constructed and isn't very rational.

On the other hand, however, I also know my family would be very disapproving of a polyamorous relationship, so I'm sure that impacts me as well, which is really my point. I think we overemphasize monogamy.

Well, my point is that there is no rational or irrational without reference to values and context. Your position in your context is not only rational, but doing the opposite would be irrational.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Oh I agree completely. I know for me, I couldn't handle the idea of my girlfriend sleeping with other guys. I get jealous enough when she talks about an ex. That being said, I know that how I feel is likely socially constructed and isn't very rational.

Logically and morally, I have no problem with my girlfriend being with other men, but I've been socially conditioned to have an involuntary jealous reaction to the mere thought of it. It's something that I've been trying to control, because I really think it would be beneficial for my current relationship to be "open." My girlfriend lives 20 hours away from me by airplane, so we don't get to see each other more than 3 or 4 times per year. That means that, for us, monogamy means long stretches of celibacy. We've both been faithful (as far as I know), so I guess it's a realistic expectation, but is it fair? Is it selfish of me to want a 20-something girl to go without sex for months at a time? Intellectually, I know that it is, but I'm not evolved enough to have it any other way.

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I would wager that the acts that people watch through pornography came into their heads first before they saw the porn.

I'm as pro-porn as anyone (remember, my girlfriend lives 20 hours away), but I disagree with this. I'm not sure that marriages are falling apart over it, but I don't know how many men would even think to try anal sex (for example) if it weren't so prevalent in modern pornography, but now I'm sure there are men who feel like they're missing out if they've never had a partner who was willing to at least try it once.

[flamesfever]

I recall my form room teacher, back in the early 50's in high school, saying one day, "If anyone here doesn't know how babies are formed, come and see me after school". He ended up demonstrating how it was done with guppies drawn on the blackboard. I recall him saying that he and his wife, who he had recently married, had an arrangement that either of them could have dates with the opposite sex. It wasn't long before they were divorced, and he ended up marrying one of his students.

I think jealousy between couples is a good thing, as it tends to keep them from straying. Adultery, on top of all the other challenges that married couples face, can really threaten a marriage. On the other hand I have seen a fair amount of adultery happen, in both husband and wife, in some couples and they still seem to stay together. I guess it all depends on the people involved.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I think jealousy between couples is a good thing, as it tends to keep them from straying. Adultery, on top of all the other challenges that married couples face, can really threaten a marriage.

Jealousy is the primary reason that adultery threatens marriages though. Jealousy really comes down to treating people like property. She is MY woman, or he is MY man. I'm not denying that I instinctually feel that way too, but, philosophically, I don't think that it's right.

If your partner is there for you physically and emotionally whenever you need her to be, why should it be a problem if other men give her pleasure? I'm asking myself as much as I'm asking you, and I really don't have an answer.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Jealousy is the primary reason that adultery threatens marriages though. Jealousy really comes down to treating people like property. She is MY woman, or he is MY man. I'm not denying that I instinctually feel that way too, but, philosophically, I don't think that it's right.

If your partner is there for you physically and emotionally whenever you need her to be, why should it be a problem if other men give her pleasure? I'm asking myself as much as I'm asking you, and I really don't have an answer.

All I know is that it has helped keep my wife and I together for 51 years.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Jealousy is the primary reason that adultery threatens marriages though. Jealousy really comes down to treating people like property. She is MY woman, or he is MY man. I'm not denying that I instinctually feel that way too, but, philosophically, I don't think that it's right.

There are people that actually enjoy the feeling of belonging to another. Not as property, but as something greater than. I enjoy it, and my fiancee enjoys it. I'm her man, she's my woman. It's as right as any other relationship that works.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I personally considered few things as potentially more damaging to a young woman than Twilight because promotes an incredibly unhealthy idea of infatuation as love. That is another thread for another day.

That would be an interesting thread. Pop culture celebrates an unhealthy, possessive kind of "love". Example; a popular songs at weddings is "Every Breath You Take", which is really a dark warning from a stalker. There is this idea that we have one soul-mate, in a world full of billions of people.That we can't live without that other person.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I totally agree with the bolded part, but I am not convinced that the examples necessarily produce the negative effects to which you allude. That is to say, I think that our interpretations of these things as negative produces negative effects like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Here I have just pronounced Twilight to be morally bankrupt, when in actual fact my own feelings about this already stem from a well worn, socially conditioned, collective prejudice.

As I was writing it I wrestled with this. If sex can be purely reduced to a recreational activity like skiing then I would agree that it is social conditioning that has pushed us into these anti porn, anti promiscuity, anti prostitution mind set. However if through Biology sex has mental/emotional effect that cant be decoupled from the physical act then some of these reactions are instinctual then our interpretations of these things comes from a real place rather than society.

So is it possible to reduce sex to a physical response. For me I dont think I can.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I'm not sure that I buy this. I will grant that pornography produces a fantasy world of consequence-free sex in the form of pure, physical gratification, but the vast majority of people are capable of detecting and correctly decoding fantasy as wholly other than reality. There is no reason why one cannot enjoy the the fantasy at one moment, and then form healthy intimate sexual relationships in the next that are certainly even more gratifying. I'm not convinced that this is an "either / or" situation.

I agree that people can keep the fantasy world and real world separate however I think the to worlds to affect eachother. But I think that fantasy creates a thought process and these thought processes can transfer outside the fantasy world. theycan change what you find arrousing, can expand your sexual interests. These effects could be both positive or negative. So while it is possible and even probable to have healty intimate relationships while viewing a large amount of porn there is risk.

I would also argue that exposure to teens who are just forming these views is potentially more damaging than to adults of have a framework of real relaionships to interpet fantsy.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Jealousy is the primary reason that adultery threatens marriages though. Jealousy really comes down to treating people like property. She is MY woman, or he is MY man. I'm not denying that I instinctually feel that way too, but, philosophically, I don't think that it's right.

That's partially true, I think there's an important part of the equation that's missing here, particularly applying to a modern concept of marriage. It's not just that 'she is MY woman,' it's equally that 'I am HER man'. This can, and should, be a very humbling part of the marriage experience: that you are giving up your absolute autonomy. Jealousy often comes not from possessiveness (the 'ownership' side of things), but from insecurity (the 'belonging' side of things). It's worth asking whether feelings of jealousy are really about how you feel about the other person; or are they about how you feel about yourself.
Or perhaps this is just me trying to frame jealousy as a positive emotion (need to belong) rather than negative (desire to possess). There's certainly a point where jealousy becomes destructive, but I don't think it can be dismissed as simply an archaic emotion that doesn't serve a role in modern relationships.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Jealousy is the primary reason that adultery threatens marriages though. Jealousy really comes down to treating people like property. She is MY woman, or he is MY man. I'm not denying that I instinctually feel that way too, but, philosophically, I don't think that it's right.

If your partner is there for you physically and emotionally whenever you need her to be, why should it be a problem if other men give her pleasure? I'm asking myself as much as I'm asking you, and I really don't have an answer.

This comes down to what a relationship is. An emotional and physical commitment, can you have a physical relationship without the emotional one. So if being 20 hours a part you started seeing other people for sex and she did to I would suspect youd each fall in love with someone else because of the emtional component. Perhaps if you limited it to paying for sex or one night stands, or with a friend where a purely non commited relationsip.

Could you prevent yourself or could she prevent herself from emotionally cheating on eachother if you had an open physical relationship. I think the physical act of cheating is far less destructive than the emotional act of cheating.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by octothorp

I don't think it can be dismissed as simply an archaic emotion that doesn't serve a role in modern relationships.

Unfortunately this is most always the way it is construed in a post-modern society obsessed with individualism and immediacy. An issue, IMO, far more important and fundamental to us as people today living in the West than whether or not a monogamous or polygamous relationship is the right or wrong way to go about things.

[bcsoda]

Originally Posted by photon

Probably, but why would it necessarily end up with resentment issues unless someone has unreasonable expectations? People's libido changes over time, ebbs and flows, so even if they were in the same ballpark they won't stay that way.

If one partner makes advances and the other is not in the mood, so they go have a bath with their iPad and entertain themselves instead, how should that breed resentment in either one?

I could see if there was no communication or if someone was deceiving themselves ("their libido will improve when we get married") I could see it being an issue, but that's not strictly a problem with unequal libido (which is almost guaranteed to happen), it's a relationship problem.

Or is a problem with unreasonable views of masturbation or poor self esteem issues (if they're masturbating and they're not thinking of me that's cheating).

The issue of porn and the issue of masturbation need to be separated. I have no issues with masturbation, but I do have issues with porn, and you can't just chalk it up to self-esteem issues.

I think porn is incredibly sexist, misogynistic, and demeaning to women. Women in pornography are very rarely treated with what I would consider respect. I won't date someone who looks at porn for those reasons. Even if there's porn that treats women with respect, and that's all a person watches (which I would be surprised by as it seems rare, but I'm by no means a porn aficionado so I admit I could be wrong), you're still supporting a multi-billion dollar industry where the abuse of women is prevalent. There are less harmful ways to enjoy yourself.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I'm not sure that I buy this. I will grant that pornography produces a fantasy world of consequence-free sex in the form of pure, physical gratification, but the vast majority of people are capable of detecting and correctly decoding fantasy as wholly other than reality. There is no reason why one cannot enjoy the the fantasy at one moment, and then form healthy intimate sexual relationships in the next that are certainly even more gratifying. I'm not convinced that this is an "either / or" situation.

Porn isn't just a fantasy. Fantasy is defined as something that you imagine. Porn is real women and real men performing explicit sexual acts that have been filmed for you to watch. Its not something you came up with in your head, or something you read in a book that described something that you then pictured, or even something alluded to in a movie that your mind then continued on, it's actually watching these physical actions being performed. That's not a fantasy.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by bcsoda

The issue of porn and the issue of masturbation need to be separated. I have no issues with masturbation, but I do have issues with porn, and you can't just chalk it up to self-esteem issues.

I think porn is incredibly sexist, misogynistic, and demeaning to women. Women in pornography are very rarely treated with what I would consider respect. I won't date someone who looks at porn for those reasons. Even if there's porn that treats women with respect, and that's all a person watches (which I would be surprised by as it seems rare, but I'm by no means a porn aficionado so I admit I could be wrong), you're still supporting a multi-billion dollar industry where the abuse of women is prevalent. There are less harmful ways to enjoy yourself.

In the vast majority of non-Asian porn that I've seen, both the men and the women appear to be enjoying the experience (the Japanese are up to some weird stuff, but that's a topic for another day). To think that this is somehow demeaning to women would require the kind of sexist attitude that rubecube pretty well deconstructed earlier in this thread.

That aside, though, would you have a problem with your partner watching homemade porn? If a couple films themselves making love and posts it on a free website, no one is being disrespected and no industry is being supported. If you'd have a problem with that, then I think the whole "porn is demeaning to women" line is just an excuse to justify the other reasons that you are uncomforatable with pornography.

[Tinordi]

Porn is the symptom of a larger problem; not a problem in and of itself. Address sexism and patriarchy and the porn 'problem' changes significantly. Don't address that and you'll never be able to deal with the issues that porn furthers.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by bcsoda

I won't date someone who looks at porn for those reasons.

So either you don't date, or you only date liars.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Logically and morally, I have no problem with my girlfriend being with other men, but I've been socially conditioned to have an involuntary jealous reaction to the mere thought of it. It's something that I've been trying to control, because I really think it would be beneficial for my current relationship to be "open." My girlfriend lives 20 hours away from me by airplane, so we don't get to see each other more than 3 or 4 times per year. That means that, for us, monogamy means long stretches of celibacy. We've both been faithful (as far as I know), so I guess it's a realistic expectation, but is it fair? Is it selfish of me to want a 20-something girl to go without sex for months at a time? Intellectually, I know that it is, but I'm not evolved enough to have it any other way.

I think there are two other angles here as well. There's the ego or self-esteem issue of feeling like you're not enough or good enough for your woman if she's attracted to and sleeping with other men. However, this is part of the larger probably that we as men place a premium on the physical aspect of a relationship than the emotional aspect. If a woman is seeking physical intimacy with other men but is reliant on you for emotional intimacy, that should be more meaningful, but for some reason it's not, and I think that's due to the competitive aspect of sex.

Somewhere along the line the number of partners a man has slept with became a defining trait of masculinity, where we now think less of ourselves if we've had less partners than another man. Again, there's no logically good reason for this, as I would venture that most men who've been in long-term monogamous relationships have undoubtedly had more sex than those who've had a higher than average number of partners. And really, men in relationships are seen as largely more virtuous and desirable by women and society (you could argue that this is poor logic as well).

I'm as pro-porn as anyone (remember, my girlfriend lives 20 hours away), but I disagree with this. I'm not sure that marriages are falling apart over it, but I don't know how many men would even think to try anal sex (for example) if it weren't so prevalent in modern pornography, but now I'm sure there are men who feel like they're missing out if they've never had a partner who was willing to at least try it once.

You could also argue that the slut-shaming towards women who engage in anal sex is due to the association of the act with porn, and the demeaning ways in which women in porn are treated during the act.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Unfortunately this is most always the way it is construed in a post-modern society obsessed with individualism and immediacy. An issue, IMO, far more important and fundamental to us as people today living in the West than whether or not a monogamous or polygamous relationship is the right or wrong way to go about things.

I think that's an excellent way to frame the question, and to put it back to the original topic, what's more immediate and individualist than getting off to porn? In this way, I think that porn isn't really the problem, (just as divorce isn't necessarily the problem, and adultery isn't necessary the problem). These are all in some ways symptoms of individualism and immediacy.