Not just that, it's everything. The list of supposed reasons a person might be an atheist is insulting. The statement that "because there is no written code of conduct for an atheist I have no idea what to expect him to do" is.. it's baffling. It's like saying "because there's no written code of conduct for people who don't collect stamps I have no idea what to expect him to do".
Atheism isn't a moral framework, it's the absence of belief in gods.
And "Likely, because there is nothing greater than him in the grand scheme of things, he will be looking out for himself. I cannot know that he will be doing anything beyond what is self serving." doesn't even deserve a response.
What's more scary, the guy that does the right thing because it's the right thing? Or the guy that does the right thing because he's doing what he's told (to appease or avoid punishment)?
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
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Another way to look at this moral issue between believers and atheists was articulated in the book Escape from Freedom by Eric Fromm.
Essentially, it is easier for a person to let someone else fill in the answers to life's tough questions than to grapple with them yourself. This is a big reason for the rise of the Nazi's, the strength of the Catholic Church etc (as examples of AUTHORITARIAN regimes...which isn't necessarily the same as religious groups although many religous groups have authoritarian tendencies).
So yes, when you look at a religious person you may think you know their playbook...however, how much of their worldview have they tested themselves and how much have they just accepted because someone told them that was the case.
You don't think there are atheists who have never grappled with the big questions? You don't think there are atheists who embraced that position to thumb there nose at the religion of their family? Are there no atheists who claim that title because it is the most convenient to their life style?
The fact is every belief system has tag-alongs who stumble through life never examining there given beliefs. Every belief system also has people who came as seekers or were already there but, took the risk at some point to examine what they know to be true. Converts from another belief system usually have the most zeal. Christianity has converts from atheism and atheists have converts from christianity. Did one group suddenly chose to stop asking the big questions?
Has a man that says there is no God while having imperfect knowledge of all the possibilities that exist opened his mind or closed it? I say closed.
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Not just that, it's everything. The list of supposed reasons a person might be an atheist is insulting. The statement that "because there is no written code of conduct for an atheist I have no idea what to expect him to do" is.. it's baffling. It's like saying "because there's no written code of conduct for people who don't collect stamps I have no idea what to expect him to do".
Atheism isn't a moral framework, it's the absence of belief in gods.
And "Likely, because there is nothing greater than him in the grand scheme of things, he will be looking out for himself. I cannot know that he will be doing anything beyond what is self serving." doesn't even deserve a response.
What's more scary, the guy that does the right thing because it's the right thing? Or the guy that does the right thing because he's doing what he's told (to appease or avoid punishment)?
Religion is but one code of conduct in the many codes of conduct we have in society. If anything, religion plays such a tiny one in the general aspect of Canadian society that it is really insignificant.
Social rules.
Cultural rules.
Legal rules.
I would say those all play a greater role in our interactions in society than religious rules do. If you're "wondering what an atheist will do", you might want to start with that.
Has a man that says there is no God while having imperfect knowledge of all the possibilities that exist opened his mind or closed it? I say closed.
Most atheists will not claim that without a shadow of a doubt. The closest they will come is "at this point in time, based on the evidence available, there isn't enough evidence for a god".
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"The researchers found that religious believers thought that descriptions of untrustworthy people people who steal or cheat were more likely to be atheists than Christians, Muslims, Jews, gays or feminists."
Has a man that says there is no Santa while having imperfect knowledge of all the possibilities that exist opened his mind or closed it? I say closed.
You are correct.
Of course the existance of Santa is a very narrow possibility to close your mind to. What is the cost? If your anything like me you've never gone a whole month without being kicked off the nice list for something. A year wouldn't be humanly possible. That leaves coal and about half way between your house and mine is a mountain of the stuff. Who needs it?
Most atheists will not claim that without a shadow of a doubt. The closest they will come is "at this point in time, based on the evidence available, there isn't enough evidence for a god".
I think you are talking about agnostics, not atheists.
There is no god or other supernatural creatures. I would say at this time there is *no* evidence at all of gods and the more you try to wrap your head around some being at the beginning of time throwing together the universe, the more ridiculous is gets.
I think you are talking about agnostics, not atheists.
There is no god or other supernatural creatures. I would say at this time there is *no* evidence at all of gods and the more you try to wrap your head around some being at the beginning of time throwing together the universe, the more ridiculous is gets.
Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive, nor are agnosticism and theism.
I don't know, but I believe there's a god. = Agnostic theist
I don't know, but I don't believe in gods. = Agnostic atheist
To be honest. I am going to frame this argument in the first person, don't be fooled into actually believing this is actually what I think.
Ok I'll respond to the remainder of this post as such, of course not to you specifically
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The big reason I feel that Christians distrust atheists, is because of the source of their morality, not their lack of it. As a Christian, my belief is that my morals come from a source other than just myself, that my code of conduct is one that is recognizable, and one that is significantly interpreted by other people, not just myself. As a Christian, I know what I should be expecting from other Christians in terms of conduct. I know that they may break that code of conduct, and that does happen all the time. But, I also know that those people will likely feel badly about breaking their own code of conduct, and that will lead them to avoid doing so. The point is, I know what to expect.
While in theory that might be possible, in actuality its completely a false idea. There are so many varied versions of Christianity, and of course the simple fact people act and do horrible things whom are Christians, so obviously whether you are Christian or not is no indicator of what you can expect that person to do morally. Feeling badly about it is no satisfying answer to people breaking that code of conduct all the time.
The fact is they do this all the time, even by strict religious Christian dogma very few people follow all of their codes of conduct, and in fact often ignore many from their biblical texts.
Have to specifically speak this this point in more depth.
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As a Christian, my belief is that my morals come from a source other than just myself, that my code of conduct is one that is recognizable, and one that is significantly interpreted by other people, not just myself.
As an atheist, my belief is that morals come from a source other than myself, that this code of conduct is one that is recognizable and is significantly interpreted by other people, not just myself.
Sorry for just replacing atheist there, but I hope you see my point before I address this.
As a human living today without a religious belief, we are part of a species and communities built on morals dictated by our interactions and the well being of ourselves and others. Morals didn't appear the moment Moses stepped off mount Sinai and handed down the 10 commandments. Its been with us from our ape like ancestors and has developed into more complex ideas since we've evolved into much more complex societies.
But even in tribal primitive man we knew murder was bad within our own tribe, that protection of each other and our most vulnerable, the children and elderly; was key to survival.
However with not going too deep into that, I'm sure this is pretty easy to accept and understand, now we look at morality today in our modern west. The vast majority of laws and moral behavior we abide by today are not based on religious codes of conduct, in fact a great deal of them are based on breaking free from old dogmas and moving into humanist ideals.
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When dealing with an Christian, I don't know what to expect. Why is the guy an christian Is he an christian because he's not a scientist? I don't personally think that's a good reason to be an christian, as I am a scientist and I reject that point of view, but at least I can understand it. Is he an christian because he's a philosopher? Is he an christian because he was hurt in some way by people he considers representative of atheists? Is he an christian because he doesn't like atheists politically? Is he an christian because it's the cool thing to do on the internet?
Sorry rather than spend great lengths responding to this, I think the easiest way to show its absurdness is to turn it back on you.
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The point is, Not only do I not know his motivation, but because there is no written code of conduct for an atheist I have no idea what to expect him to do.
Mind boggling, but here I go anyhow. The 10 commandments, is safe to say is ignored in many parts by most Christians, only steal and murder are actual laws and not having other gods, taking gods name in vain, not coveting thy neighbors house (bye capitalism!), etc.. This is simply nonsense, if an attempt was made today to make up 10 moral rules to live by, this list would be laughable in comparison, this list given DIRECTLY to us by God.
An atheist just like a Christian is more likely to be predictable based on what country you find them in and the laws and moral standards of that land. The slight variation in moral beliefs within say Canada is quite small, and what we hold morally right is what we would most definitely have most in common.
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His conduct will be unknown. Likely, because there is nothing greater than him in the grand scheme of things, he will be looking out for himself. I cannot know that he will be doing anything beyond what is self serving.
Such an utter and staggeringly laughable idea, sorry trying to hold back I swear. Firstly if religious people only did right because of the fear of divine repercussions than those people would be horribly immoral beings. An atheist doesn't just "look out for himself." Like you they are members of a community, and as such take care of themselves, their families, their communities and their species. Like you. The only difference being we source our morals and laws from logic and reason, not because its written down on an old text and just follow that with unquestioning faith.
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Funny enough, the other category of rapist follows similar expectations of what I can expect. I do not know what the code of conduct of an atheist is, but I know it is not the same one that I follow - he (or she) rejected it. A rapist, by definition, has also rejected my code of conduct. I do not know what either of these two will do. They are a mystery in these terms.
Oddly enough a rapist rejects my code of conduct too. So in your world anyone who is a christian that commits rape, is not an actual christian?
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Now, a Muslim, he does not share my code of conduct. But he does have one. My distrust likely stems from incomplete understanding of that code. I do know some things about it, and as a result I can expect certain actions from him.
Wow. What specific things can you expect from him? I would love a serious answer because this is such a loaded suggestion and demands a real comment. Considering you state you know next to nothing about their code of conduct but the fact he also shares a God belief then its good enough for me...
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The fact that his code of conduct is not written by him to serve himself is something that allows me to feel that his conduct will be acceptable, especially for minor or public things. This is something that a Muslim has that an atheist can never have.
If you mean an atheist cannot be bound by outdated religious laws such as how to treat your slaves, what payment you should expect when you sell your daughter, and many such other wonderful moral lessons.. then yes we can't sadly share in that glory.
We can only go out and live moral lives based on thinking rather than obedience and fear of divine punishment.
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If you frame it in terms of expectation and conduct, instead of the private and provocative terms of belief, the results of this study become less incredulous. It isn't about whether or not you believe in a spiritual being that results in questions of trust, it's about how one individual understands another. Their motivations, and their resultant actions. It's as simple as that.
To me it stems from a massive misunderstanding of religious people on what atheists are, from 1000's of years of such nonsense its not unusual that this will take some time to correct. The fact is the vast majority of religious people are not taking this idea any further than:
"God is the source of my morals, if someone is without God they are not moral people."
Very few people would take this idea further like we are doing here in this thread and reaching the horrific conclusion of the only reason to be moral and good is because a God will punish you if you don't.
Thats beyond ridiculous, now its a matter of educating religious people to this idea and help break more stigmas and intolerant beliefs against non religious people.
I'd like to end this with a nice quick summary of why religious morality isn't what modern society bases its moralities or laws on, far from it.
i find studies like this interesting for the simple fact that they exist. even as recent as a hundred years ago there were virtually no non-believers around, so topics like this never came up. we're seeing more and more of these types of stories in the media because the number of non-believers in the world grows year by year, and there's nothing that the religious can do to stop it. this is why they are so fervent about their beliefs and stand on their soap boxes to claim the evils of atheism, because they see their numbers dwindling every day
in another hundred years it will be the believers who are distrusted by the majority of society, and we'll see stories about how hard it is for openly Christian politicians to get elected
I don't think so, but I don't think "open mind" and "closed mind" are much more than rhetoric, reality isn't one or the other, but rather gradual degrees of plausibility and worthiness of investigation.
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Of course the existance of Santa is a very narrow possibility to close your mind to. What is the cost?
The cost of not accepting a claim isn't relevant to the veracity of the claim, that's flawed reasoning.
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
If your anything like me you've never gone a whole month without being kicked off the nice list for something. A year wouldn't be humanly possible. That leaves coal and about half way between your house and mine is a mountain of the stuff. Who needs it?
Not accepting a claim because one doesn't like the consequences of that claim being true is flawed reasoning.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
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i find studies like this interesting for the simple fact that they exist. even as recent as a hundred years ago there were virtually no non-believers around, so topics like this never came up. we're seeing more and more of these types of stories in the media because the number of non-believers in the world grows year by year, and there's nothing that the religious can do to stop it. this is why they are so fervent about their beliefs and stand on their soap boxes to claim the evils of atheism, because they see their numbers dwindling every day
in another hundred years it will be the believers who are distrusted by the majority of society, and we'll see stories about how hard it is for openly Christian politicians to get elected
I don't necessarily believe your viewpoints here, but it made me chuckle because you indirectly compared religeous people to smokers.
I don't think so, but I don't think "open mind" and "closed mind" are much more than rhetoric, reality isn't one or the other, but rather gradual degrees of plausibility and worthiness of investigation.
An atheist by definition has closed his mind to the possibility of the existance of God. You can think what you want but, that is what makes an atheist an atheist.
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Originally Posted by photon
The cost of not accepting a claim isn't relevant to the veracity of the claim, that's flawed reasoning.
I never said it was relevant to the veracity of the claim. Don't put words in my mouth.
The value of the answer determines its relevance. There is a reason why mankind continues to seek an alternate energy source equal to fossel fuels or a cure for MS, breast cancer, alzheimer, ect. Men have spent whole careers seeking answers to these questions and failed to find those answers. Yet another man and then another one picks up where they left off in the hope of succeeding where the other failed. There may be no cure for alzheimer or an energy source capable of giving us what fossel fuels provide us now. It is the value of the answer that makes the pursuit worth while.
Photon you and your atheist brethern have determined there is no God and moreover there is nothing after this life. Not only do you chose not to seek but, contend that those who do are being foolish. You atheists have closed your minds to the two biggest questions life has to offer.
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Originally Posted by photon
Not accepting a claim because one doesn't like the consequences of that claim being true is flawed reasoning.
An atheist by definition has closed his mind to the possibility of the existance of God. You can think what you want but, that is what makes an atheist an atheist.
Good of you to tell all atheists what they think, but you are wrong.
Atheism is the lack of belief, it doesn't say anything about future possibilities. Redefining the word might help you make your point but there's no reason to do it.
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
I never said it was relevant to the veracity of the claim. Don't put words in my mouth.
You said "Of course the existance of Santa is a very narrow possibility to close your mind to. What is the cost?"
You're the one that asked "What is the cost?", the cost isn't relevant.
Of course if you're just throwing random sentences in between other sentences that aren't supposed to be connected to each other, then there's no way to determine the meaning.
As written is fallacious.
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
The value of the answer determines its relevance. There is a reason why mankind continues to seek an alternate energy source equal to fossel fuels or a cure for MS, breast cancer, alzheimer, ect. Men have spent whole careers seeking answers to these questions and failed to find those answers. Yet another man and then another one picks up where they left off in the hope of succeeding where the other failed. There may be no cure for alzheimer or an energy source capable of giving us what fossel fuels provide us now. It is the value of the answer that makes the pursuit worth while.
That's nice, but that doesn't have any bearing on what I said.
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Photon you and your atheist brethern
When have I ever said that I'm an atheist?
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
have determined there is no God and moreover there is nothing after this life.
Determined is a statement about knowledge, theism/atheism is a statement about belief. They're not the same things.
Lots of atheists would not say they have determined there is no god, they would just say they don't believe in any.
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Not only do you chose not to seek but, contend that those who do are being foolish.
You talk about putting words in other people's mouth but then make a whole post full of it....
Who said I didn't chose to seek, every time I read or post in a thread or talk to friends or read a book about religion and spirituality and such I seek.
I spent most of my adult life in church seeking.
And where have I said those that seek are being foolish?
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
You atheists have closed your minds to the two biggest questions life has to offer.
I haven't closed my mind to any possibility. Most atheists haven't either, pretty much any atheist I know is open to be convinced otherwise.
Your convenient straw atheist that you've set up isn't representative of all or even (I'd say) many atheists.
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Originally Posted by Calgaryborn
Yet many atheist do this very thing.
Sure, who ever said an atheist would be immune to flawed reasoning? The human brain is riddled with cognitive flaws, one's position on god or politics or Santa hardly changes that.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
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I don't think you guys understand what I was suggesting. I wasn't suggesting that this was a conscious thought process specifically done by Christians, but rather an unconscious way that all humans view someone that doesn't fit their own belief system. I saw a study result, and I attempted to form a hypothesis that would fit that data.
I have people over, and would rather not spend my entire weekend responding to what I had to say, but let me respond somewhat.
Thor: your response of turning it right back at me was actually what I was thinking would be the appropriate response. Your post then descended into ranting about how religion is not the source of morality, and that it's really depraved, evil, soulsucking... blah blah blah. I don't want to get into how your post started so well, then ended so "insulting" back. Needless to say, Amongst atheists, you would fall under the "political" atheist. You dislike the politics of what people you identify as Christians do and are, and identify with the politics of those who claim that there is no god. It's part of your way of identifying with your Icelandic family, and differentiating yourself from all those evil Republican Americans. Trust me, I also have serious problems with those same people, for much the same reason you do.
Photon: You stated that you found my comments to be "insulting". I found that odd. Particularly odd that you might find an attempt to explain why some people might show bigotry personally. Considering the shocking filth that most atheists spew at religious people stating that their belief system is evil, well, you are going to have a hard time making me feel sorry that your religious sensibilities have been hurt. The second thing I find so odd is that I was merely trying to explain the results of the study. One impression I get from atheists is their belief that they 'actually' understand how the universe works, and that they don't need to resort to belief in fairies and ceiling cats to feel good about the world. So, when I tried to explain a possible way that the universe was working, you got offended. Pardon if I found that ironic.
Thing is, I came to my conclusion from an evolutionary point of view, not a Christianity-is-better-than-anything point of view. No one seemed to get that, however. Probably because atheists can't fathom a Christian actually explaining something like this using evolution. Sorry. I guess you guys spend too much time arguing with guys like Calgaryborn.
IŽll respond more later, but that reply I gave and throwing it back at you was at this fictional mind coming up with these arguments, I started my thread with this is not directed at you.
Hmm. Closed my mind to something? So? Not to be flippant, but not everything requires deep thought and contemplation. Would I be friends with a rapist? No. My mind is not open to that, regardless of what other qualities this rapist possesses. Does the concept of god require any additional thought after my initial assessment? Not really. The concept is nonsense. I think a survey of atheists about who they distrust the most would be interesting. I don't trust believers because I know what they are thinking and what guides them. I believe they have a closed mind of what reality is, and are not able to cope with death just being death. Yes, you return to the maker, earth. I find it interesting that the believers just conveniently stop at a god being the origin of everything. Does it have a dad, a mom, siblings? Will you claim you don't know? Did you close your mind to other possiblities?
In short, your closed-mindedness about god not having a brother or sister or an.uncle is the same as my closed-mindedness about there being a god at all.
