2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[Muta]

Hamilton is entering a small group of elite defensemen currently in the league. Last year he really took another step forward with his puck movement, offense and playmaking abilities.

Let's not trade Hamilton, we will always lose that trade. Instead, let's push for a Brodie / Gallagher deal with other parts added in where needed.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Muta

Let's not trade Hamilton, we will always lose that trade.

I don’t understand the reasoning that we would always lose a Hamilton trade. You’re saying a team can never offer something better than Hamilton? We don’t know the offers. A desperate GM may offer more to Treliving than Treliving thinks Hamilton is worth. You cannot rule out that possibility.

Let’s not speak in absolutes here, that just doesn’t help the discussion.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I am just baiting / trolling you: where does Hamilton rank on the Jets RD Byfuglien / Trouba / Myers?

Not sure the relevance or the trolling but isn't it pretty obviously Byfuglien-Hamilton-Trouba-Myers?

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by calgaryfox

It amazes me that some CP'ers solely use statistics to justify a players' value to the team. Sure, Hamilton has great offensive numbers, but to me, he just doesn't pass the 'old school' eyeball test to qualify him as an elite defenseman earning north of $6m.

His defensive deficiencies cause as many goals against as he scores, either directly or indirectly. I agree that he's still young, but he has over 400 NHL games under his belt and doesn't seem to learn for his mistakes.

From what I see, his defensive hockey IQ is a "C" at best and his lack of body positional awareness is brutal to watch and leads to a ridiculous amount of bonehead penalties.

Passing is dire, "C" .He continually gives away possession by sending knee high passes out of the zone - or icing the puck.

Physicality - C-. Despite his size, he does not dominate, or intimidate.

I wouldn't lose any sleep if Flames traded Dougie for a much needed top RW to add 25+goals and 60 points and bring in a solid DEFENDER which would also reduce the amount of goals against.

I guess I'm just not a Dougie fan and feel that the return we could get for him right now could potentially give us the right tools to be a contender next year.

He's essentially a "C" by your comments, but he could also get a good return.

Okay

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well the proposal had Bennett in it, a former top 5 pick himself. I wouldn’t be giving him away and he seems to be missing from your equation.

Hamilton is easily worth more than Stone. Top pairing defencemen are worth way more than wingers. Bennett IMO you wouldn’t be trading for anything less than a mid 1st. i certainly wouldn’t add anything more from CGY’s end and if you’re looking for an overpayment to dealing Hamilton then yeah maybe OTT would have to add.

Personally I think it doesn’t make any sense to be dealing Bennett as I doubt his trade value is as high as his upside. So best to keep him.

Hamilton you only deal if you get an overpayment IMO. So take what you think is a fair deal and then add a bit more from the other team

Bennett was a top 5 pick but now has been surpassed by many picked after him. He's a maybe a top 10 pick today or even lower. Pasternik, Ehlers, Nylander, Point, Larkin, Arvidsson all come to my head right away. Probably include Fabbri as well. He's now an add in to get a top 6 forward and you pitch him as a 4th overall pick with upside. Reality is he's a maybe top 10 in a redraft and after the 250 game litmus test his upside beyond a middle forward just isn't there.

If Bennett was any of those players you probably aren't looking to upgrade your top 6 or middle 6 forwards. You aren't looking at maybe trading Hamilton to address that need either.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I don’t understand the reasoning that we would always lose a Hamilton trade. You’re saying a team can never offer something better than Hamilton? We don’t know the offers. A desperate GM may offer more to Treliving than Treliving thinks Hamilton is worth. You cannot rule out that possibility.

Let’s not speak in absolutes here, that just doesn’t help the discussion.

Top pairing defenseman are hard to develop, and extremely costly to acquire. If we trade Hamilton we're right back to 2015 in need of a top pairing defenseman. Giordano isn't getting any younger, either. We should be exploring the options for Brodie first, and possibly Giordano as well.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Muta

Top pairing defenseman are hard to develop, and extremely costly to acquire. If we trade Hamilton we're right back to 2015 in need of a top pairing defenseman. Giordano isn't getting any younger, either. We should be exploring the options for Brodie first, and possibly Giordano as well.

I’ve maintained that if Brodie can get us a top 6 forward that would be preferable to moving Hamilton.

I think Giordano is one the most important pieces on the team currently, wouldn’t be looking to move him.

As for developing a top pairing dman, there’s some hope Valimaki May be one within 2-3 years.

Giordano-Brodie was a solid top pairing a few years ago. I think Giordano-Hamonic would be a very solid but less offensive top pairing kind of like when Regehr used to be top pairing for us. So it’s not like we have zero options to play there should Hamilton be moved.

But yes IMO if Brodie can get you the type of forward you need I think it makes more sense to move him. Wouldn’t surprise me if GMs offer us 3-5 times as much in terms of value for Hamilton so Treliving May have to listen to those offers

[Erick Estrada]

I think Gio is difficult to move for a variety of reasons and some of them being his importance as the leader on the team. That said he is beginning to gradually decline and in the coming seasons he's probably going to be better suited in a 2nd pairing role. Outside of Hamilton who are you looking at as a future as a guaranteed top pairing defensemen in the organization? I just don't see another guy which is why I feel Hamilton, Tkachuk, Monahan, and Gaudreau are the core players going forward and I wouldn't expect to see any of them moved outside of maybe Gaudreau near the end of his contract.

[Nelson]

I also think we should look to move Giordano right now. It would be really tough because he is the leader, a top-10 defenceman league-wide, and I love him, but he is 34. This means, sooner or later, his depreciation will start and grow exponentially. If the Flames trade him now (for the right price), they will trade their asset while it’s highly valued. This will mean a greater return. Let’s not do what we did with Iginla.

[SuperMatt18]

Would be very Flames to trade a highly skilled young player because of "Character" and "Grit"...how did that work with Marc Savard.

In the last 10 years here are the top 5 d-men by points before their 25th birthday.

Karlsson - GP: 397 P: 303 +/-: -19
Doughty - GP: 442 P: 221 +/-: 36
Hamilton - GP: 423 P:220 +/-:22
Pietrangelo - GP:386 P: 218 +/-: 43
Ekman Larsson - GP: 415 P:209 +/-: -20

Remind me again why we are even thinking about trading a d-man who is a possession driver against top competition, puts up over 0.5 PPG, and is a positive player at even strength...all before he even turned 25.

That's right because of "Character" and "Grit"...I honestly hope that Treliving is smarter than thinking that Hamilton not hitting enough, or showing enough "heart" is the source of this team's problems this year. Scoring goals, and our PP were our biggest issues, both areas that Hamilton helps not hurts.

[transplant99]

I know i am in the minority, but i think Hamonic can slide into a top 2 role with Gio if need be, and then you promote from within or get a decent #3/4 guy in a Hamilton deal, along with a 1st line winger/center. With the seemingly endless supply of young dmen coming along, they have to either trade them or one of the big 2 dmen. Gio isnt going anywhere, and Brodie wont return much of anything.

One thing is for sure, BT will make a major move this off-season and if its not from the blueline, it means Bennett/Backlund/Jankowski are all in play.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Nelson

I also think we should look to move Giordano right now. It would be really tough because he is the leader, a top-10 defenceman league-wide, and I love him, but he is 34. This means, sooner or later, his depreciation will start and grow exponentially. If the Flames trade him now (for the right price), they will trade their asset while it’s highly valued. This will mean a greater return. Let’s not do what we did with Iginla.

This is crazy. If we hope to regain that hard working, always earned mentality over the next couple of seasons, we'll need Gio, as IMO he exemplifies this. Gio is hands down our best D-man, just because he's going to regress over the the next few years isn't really that concerning. With all of the young Dmen we have in the pipeline, having a guy like Gio to mentor them will be crucial. He could be paired with Valimaki in a year or two to help bring him along, kind of like Chara with McAvoy.

This isn't like the Iginla situation at all. We aren't about to blow the team up and enter a rebuild. We're hoping to start contending soon, we have a lot of young players in the system. Trading your best Dman (possibly best player) right now makes no sense, and could seriously damage the culture of the dressing room.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I know i am in the minority, but i think Hamonic can slide into a top 2 role with Gio if need be, and then you promote from within or get a decent #3/4 guy in a Hamilton deal, along with a 1st line winger/center. With the seemingly endless supply of young dmen coming along, they have to either trade them or one of the big 2 dmen. Gio isnt going anywhere, and Brodie wont return much of anything.

One thing is for sure, BT will make a major move this off-season and if its not from the blueline, it means Bennett/Backlund/Jankowski are all in play.

I think for the next few seasons any of Hamilton, Brodie or Hamonic can fit onto the top pairing with Gio. He seems to bring out the best of his linemates. Seen it with Brodie and now Hamilton.

If Andersson or Valimaki can turn into capable 2nd pairing players that makes Hamilton or Brodie expendable. Turn one of those players into a top 6 forward and address lack of secondary scoring. Probably doesn't happen though until next summer.

In mean time with Andersson ready for full time, I'd look at moving Stone.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by the2bears

He's essentially a "C" by your comments, but he could also get a good return.

Okay

what part of this evaluation do you disagree?

He did score 2 more goals than Wideman had in 2014-15. "A"

and he is in the top-20/30 scoring d-men in the league. "A"

He does have an incredibly high attempted shots on goal and SOG which is an "A" Might be a valuable "A" depending if Corsi was correlated to team success.

That is pretty much why he is so valued by the fan base.

What would you rate his Physicality, Defensive Hockey IQ and Passing? and why?

[Andrew]

I would put andersson or valamaki with gio.let him mentor them

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

what part of this evaluation do you disagree?

He did score 2 more goals than Wideman had in 2014-15. "A"

and he is in the top-20/30 scoring d-men in the league. "A"

He does have an incredibly high attempted shots on goal and SOG which is an "A" Might be a valuable "A" depending if Corsi was correlated to team success.

That is pretty much why he is so valued by the fan base.

What would you rate his Physicality, Defensive Hockey IQ and Passing? and why?

Goal Scoring: A Good at finding a hole in the offensive zone and getting his shot through. Led NHL d-men in goals.

Passing: B Good breakout for the most part, top 40 d-man in assists

Hockey Sense: B- Makes some questionable decisions but overall solid.

Shot Generation: A + (Highest CF/60 among d-men playing over 500 minutes)

Shot Suppression: A (22nd lowest Corsi against per 60 among d-men playing over 500 minutes)

Scoring Chance Generation: A+ (8th among d-men playing over 500 minutes)

Scoring Chance Suppression: A (22nd lowest scoring chances against per 60 among d-men playing over 500 minutes.)

Physicality: C (About as many hits/game as Gio/Hamonic, but doesn't block as many shots.)

So overall he is pretty great but his Ricardo Grit Index (Hits, Blocked Shots, other over-rated crap) isn't up to the Ricardo standard so we should get rid of him as soon as possible.

[VilleN]

^ I'd say Hamonic is more physical than Hamilton for sure, and I'd also say that Gio is quite a bit more physical too... Come to think of it, Gio and Hamonic are probably our two most physical Dmen.

Agree with the rest tho.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Remind me again why we are even thinking about trading a d-man who is a possession driver against top competition, puts up over 0.5 PPG, and is a positive player at even strength...all before he even turned 25.

That's right because of "Character" and "Grit"...I honestly hope that Treliving is smarter than thinking that Hamilton not hitting enough, or showing enough "heart" is the source of this team's problems this year. Scoring goals, and our PP were our biggest issues, both areas that Hamilton helps not hurts.

Are you going into next season with the EXACT same roster (top 6-9 for example) less the UFA's and expecting exponentially better results?

Do you think the coaching change alone will be enough to turn the team around?

What asset do you feel we could trade that will net us a player that can give us a top 6 scoring threat?

Again, you're stuck in the narrative that people want to just trade Dougie because hes "bad" and nobody is saying that. WE KNOW his numbers are good, we KNOW he's great at what he does but not without some visible holes. He's going to command a SIGNIFICANT return if Brad chooses to test the waters.

1 Elite defenseman is worth a franchise forward + significant assets including 1st round picks every time you look at it, and YES I think that's the return we should expect.

Will we miss Dougie's offensive upside? Absolutely
Will we miss Dougie's defensive gafs and frequent penalties? Nope
Could another young defenseman slot in on the 1st pairing and put up some points? Sure, I think both Rasmus and Valimaki have a legit shot to make the team this year.
Do we have depth in the pipeline that could slot into a top 2 roll with the flames over the next few years? Sure we do its our strongest position.

I'm all for trading Dougie and giving a young kid a shot in the top 2 IF the return we get makes us extremely better up front. Hell maybe even try Brodie back on that side and see if he can rekindle the magic he had 3-4 seasons ago under Hartley playing along side Gio.

We know he helps the PP, we now he put up the most points. It still wasn't enough sadly, our top 6 depth up front has to be close to one of the weakest in the NHL. In order to fix that you have to give up assets, and those assets have to be worth something to other GM's. That's why people throw Dougie's name around the most because he's our only tradable asset big enough to command a significant return and has NOTHING to do with how bad is or was.

You have to give to get, so if you want to GET something this off season that makes us better for next year, hes our best shot. We've got no draft picks to dangle, it has to be a roster player and unfortunately for all flames fans it would take Dougie to get something done.

Now if you think the coaching change solves our problems then I'm not sure what to say, you're entitled to your opinion and nothing I say will change that but our top 6 speaks for itself, it didn't get it done and that's with all 3 of Johnny, Sean and Ferland putting up career number's early in the season.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

what part of this evaluation do you disagree?

Just what you quoted. Don't be dense.

How can he be a 'C' yet still garner a good return.

That's what was said, that's what I disagree with.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Are you going into next season with the EXACT same roster (top 6-9 for example) less the UFA's and expecting exponentially better results?
FREE AGENCY IS THE HOPE, WE WILL SEE IF THERE ARE ANY OPTIONS FOR THE FLAMES

Do you think the coaching change alone will be enough to turn the team around?
IT CANT HURT.

What asset do you feel we could trade that will net us a player that can give us a top 6 scoring threat?
BRODIE & SEVERAL ALMOST NHL READY D PROSPECTS

^^