American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by rubecube

According to the polls, yes. I know it's inconvenient for Democrats and their supporters to admit that racism wasn't the primary reason for Trump's popularity, but the declining number of black and other non-white voters show that the divisions in the country are likely more along class lines than racial lines.

We are a long,long way out, Neither candidate is popular among the broader populace, Biden basically isn’t even campaigning at this point. I think all polls tell you right now is this is not a cake walk for anyone, Bidens path to victory is through turning out the vote. Trump can’t grow really, he can’t attract the moderate middle, but he will be formidable because if the fervent nature of his supporters.

So much of the outcome will be determined by the events of the world the next 12 months,

[OldDutch]

Trump isn’t winning. The US is so divided it comes down to “undecideds” aka “centrists” aka the ones Liberals despise cause they ain’t committed to the good team.

That said, I cannot see them going for Trump. Not criminal Trump. A thought of Harris taking over for Biden is awful, but its less awful than a convicted criminal.

Enough people swung to Trump in 2016 because Hillary was unlikeable but more importantly Obama over prommised and under delivered to folks that depended on him. He pandered to the left worse than anyone (Keystone). In the end people gave up on hope and change promises as they don’t feed your kids.

Canada is experiencing a similar journey with Trudeau free falling. Biden should and could be out too but Trump will prevent that good bad indifferent.

[Barnet Flame]

Obama seems to me to be the last inspiring candidate to lead a party in either the US, Canada and the UK.

Looking around at not just the leaders of our countries, but the candidates to potentially lead the countries, there is nothing.

I can’t recall any point in my lifetime where there has been such an absence of vision that I could either get behind or oppose. There is just nothing other than uninspiring mediocrity (at best) leading all the major parties.

I find myself in the UK, wanting Keir Starmer elected because he’s mediocre and I’m thinking, after the ####show of the past 13 years, “that’ll do”, but I have no hope or any faith that he is capable of solving the malaise here.

And I can’t think of anyone in Canada or the US that will provide inspiration, hope, or a vision and there seems to be no one in the pipeline either.

I find it all concerning, and a major weakness that could provide a potential threat to western democracy.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Trump isn’t winning. The US is so divided it comes down to “undecideds” aka “centrists” aka the ones Liberals despise cause they ain’t committed to the good team.

Nah, you have it backwards. The neoliberal establishment can't really win without the progressive vote, but they hate progressives.

Canada is experiencing a similar journey with Trudeau free falling. Biden should and could be out too but Trump will prevent that good bad indifferent.

Agreed. The LPC basically ran the same playbook of appealing to identitartians, while basically implementing classic neoliberal policies that do nothing to improve the material conditions of the average person.

Can't stand Pierre Polivere, but can't blame him for seizing on the disaffected populace.

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

Obama seems to me to be the last inspiring candidate to lead a party in either the US, Canada and the UK.

Looking around at not just the leaders of our countries, but the candidates to potentially lead the countries, there is nothing.

I can’t recall any point in my lifetime where there has been such an absence of vision that I could either get behind or oppose. There is just nothing other than uninspiring mediocrity (at best) leading all the major parties.

I find myself in the UK, wanting Keir Starmer elected because he’s mediocre and I’m thinking, after the ####show of the past 13 years, “that’ll do”, but I have no hope or any faith that he is capable of solving the malaise here.

And I can’t think of anyone in Canada or the US that will provide inspiration, hope, or a vision and there seems to be no one in the pipeline either.

I find it all concerning, and a major weakness that could provide a potential threat to western democracy.

There does seem to be a lack of visionary leaders. Part of the problem is the tone of the debate and the divisive nature is driving moderates from the conversation. That eliminates a big chunk of people, and moderates tend to be a bit more rallying.

I remain an optimist though, the US I think will shake this off after this election cycle, or at least start to. Newsom vs Haley or something along those lines would be possible. I’m not saying either of them is a rock star but that would be a substantial step forward.

[PsYcNeT]

Meanwhile, in Florida

https://twitter.com/user/status/1699850672961978600

Wait what? They blocked the video in the 3 seconds it took me to post it lmao.

Why would Musk want to block a video of Nazi's saluting? Hmmmm....

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

That said, I cannot see them going for Trump. Not criminal Trump. A thought of Harris taking over for Biden is awful, but its less awful than a convicted criminal.

Harris has been really surprising for me. Such an accomplished person in every role she's been in who would get done what she wanted to get done and did it all with a very strong presence to boot. But as VP, she's looked terrible, unprepared and extremely underwhelming. No idea what the hell happened.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Meanwhile, in Florida

https://twitter.com/user/status/1699850672961978600

Wait what? They blocked the video in the 3 seconds it took me to post it lmao.

Why would Musk want to block a video of Nazi's saluting? Hmmmm....

I don't want to downplay a disgusting belief, but it's like 20 or 30 guys in a state of nearly 22 million people. It sucks that they're out there doing that, but it accounts for a vanishingly small percentage of the population. It's not worth the time to even bother discussing it. #######s and idiots are always going to be out there, you just hope it isn't a big group that can gather any actual power.

I'm betting that if you tried you could find about 20-30 white supremacists running around Calgary too.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

Obama seems to me to be the last inspiring candidate to lead a party in either the US, Canada and the UK.

Looking around at not just the leaders of our countries, but the candidates to potentially lead the countries, there is nothing.

Who would want the job?

Why would anyone want to be a politician? The pay isn’t great if you stay honest; the hours are long; the media attention you face can be brutal; your chances of getting anything done are slight unless you get to the very top. I should know. I was a politician in my native Canada for six years, and I have the scars to prove it. Although Americans think we are a kinder, gentler version of them, the fact is that our politics is just as nasty and partisan, and, after our Parliament Hill was occupied for three weeks by disgruntled truckers, sometimes just as wildly unpredictable. Social media has made it worse. When I used to meet constituents in the flesh, they were civil even if they weren’t ever going to vote for me, but digital disinhibition turns people into vipers. What some of my fellow citizens thought fit to say about me, and my opponents too, doesn’t bear repeating—and women have it much worse. Sigrid Kaag recently resigned as the leader of a Dutch liberal party, citing the “hate, intimidation and threats.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/books/ar...review/675244/

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Wait what? They blocked the video in the 3 seconds it took me to post it lmao.

Why would Musk want to block a video of Nazi's saluting? Hmmmm....

Should Twitter platform Nazis or not?

[Itse]

If Nazis think you're one of them, you probably are.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Trump isn’t winning. The US is so divided it comes down to “undecideds” aka “centrists” aka the ones Liberals despise cause they ain’t committed to the good team.

That said, I cannot see them going for Trump. Not criminal Trump. A thought of Harris taking over for Biden is awful, but its less awful than a convicted criminal.

Enough people swung to Trump in 2016 because Hillary was unlikeable but more importantly Obama over prommised and under delivered to folks that depended on him. He pandered to the left worse than anyone (Keystone). In the end people gave up on hope and change promises as they don’t feed your kids.

Canada is experiencing a similar journey with Trudeau free falling. Biden should and could be out too but Trump will prevent that good bad indifferent.

Biden's current favorability numbers are worse than Clinton's were in 2016, while Trump's are better than they were then, so I wouldn't be too quick to assume that they won't vote Trump in again. If Biden is the nominee, he's probably going to be one of the weakest incumbent candidates in Presidential history.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I don't want to downplay a disgusting belief, but it's like 20 or 30 guys in a state of nearly 22 million people. It sucks that they're out there doing that, but it accounts for a vanishingly small percentage of the population. It's not worth the time to even bother discussing it. #######s and idiots are always going to be out there, you just hope it isn't a big group that can gather any actual power.

I'm betting that if you tried you could find about 20-30 white supremacists running around Calgary too.

If anyone finds them let me know, I'd like to throw some rocks at them.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Wait what? They blocked the video in the 3 seconds it took me to post it lmao.

Why would Musk want to block a video of Nazi's saluting? Hmmmm....

They should block it. So should Facebook, Instagram, Google, MySpace, and others. Let the trolls find their own corner of the internet, leave the main plaza for the rest of us.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I don't want to downplay a disgusting belief, but it's like 20 or 30 guys in a state of nearly 22 million people. It sucks that they're out there doing that, but it accounts for a vanishingly small percentage of the population. It's not worth the time to even bother discussing it. #######s and idiots are always going to be out there, you just hope it isn't a big group that can gather any actual power.

I'm betting that if you tried you could find about 20-30 white supremacists running around Calgary too.

Charlottesville is recent history. You only ever see a glimpse of the snake in the long grass before it bites.

This is a large and growing problem, and not just in the USA. I'm of the personal belief that while they're not representative of the larger populace, ignoring it isn't a viable solution.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Charlottesville is recent history. You only ever see a glimpse of the snake in the long grass before it bites.

This is a large and growing problem, and not just in the USA. I'm of the personal belief that while they're not representative of the larger populace, ignoring it isn't a viable solution.

Fine. What do you propose to deal with it?

I have no doubt they are emboldened by stupid DeSantis curriculum decisions about revisionist history on slavery, but again, nobody is buying that narrative that didn't already think that way.

How do you change the mind of a person like that? You can't legislate away terrible opinions, so then what?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by calculoso

They should block it. So should Facebook, Instagram, Google, MySpace, and others. Let the trolls find their own corner of the internet, leave the main plaza for the rest of us.

The Nazi's didn't post it.

And the rising Nazi problem in Florida is larger than in any other state based on recent goings-on. Suppressing posts exposing this isn't doing anyone any favors.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Should Twitter platform Nazis or not?

You really thought you were cookin' something with this post huh

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

You really thought you were cookin' something with this post huh

You really haven’t thought through how social media sites are moderated, have you?

What moderation practices would you put in place to ensure that tweets showing Nazis that are posted by Nazis are taken down, but tweets showing Nazis that are posted by non-Nazis are allowed?

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Fine. What do you propose to deal with it?

I have no doubt they are emboldened by stupid DeSantis curriculum decisions about revisionist history on slavery, but again, nobody is buying that narrative that didn't already think that way.

How do you change the mind of a person like that? You can't legislate away terrible opinions, so then what?

Same thing we've always done: declare that it's still not OK to think and act this way and continue to stand with those targeted minorities and/or vulnerable groups. Hold our leaders to standards that don't enable these hate groups, and hold them accountable when they do.

There are more practical, albeit larger functions we could put in place, such as strengthening the educational and health care systems instead of neutering them. Introducing sustained programs on critical media studies and critical race theories, for example, but that harkens to your point about DeSantis.

You're right, you're not magically changing the minds of these people overnight...possibly at all. Not intending offense, but the attitude that it's just a group of 20-30 kooks isn't productive. Qanon became dangerous by segmenting themselves from society and the light was shone on it too late. Now we have politicians in power across the US and Canada that ascribe to these ideas and are influencing policy, not to mention the very real acts of violence we've seen from these folks.

Recognize it and let the light in to disinfect it.

[TopChed]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Fine. What do you propose to deal with it?

I have no doubt they are emboldened by stupid DeSantis curriculum decisions about revisionist history on slavery, but again, nobody is buying that narrative that didn't already think that way.

How do you change the mind of a person like that? You can't legislate away terrible opinions, so then what?

If your society allows completely uninhibited free speech, there's nothing you can do. This is why most developed countries have laws against inciting hatred.