[Trade] Flames trade Baertschi to VAN for a 2015 2nd round pick (Baertschi requested trade)

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Gio wanted a 1 way deal, he didn't demand a trade. Different situations.

Yes, it was different. Giordano wanted a contract but couldn't agree on terms. Baertschi apparently determined already that he wouldn't sign anything and according to Treliving, the Baertschi side was not open for discussing it... period.

I actually would have liked to see it play out though. The only European league that he could go to and potentially raise his value would be the KHL. I'm not convinced he would excel there any more than he would in the AHL. I am happy with the 2nd rounder, but I can't help but be curious to know what would have happened.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Gio wanted a 1 way deal, he didn't demand a trade. Different situations.

They both weren't getting what they wanted and refused to sign. Who's doing the spinning here?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

He said the right things to the media, spin it how you want. The trade request and ultimatum tells me all I need to know, thanks. The dude was prepared to play in Europe rather that wear our icky jersey. All before his ELC had even expired and before he had proven a damned thing.

While true, that doesn't necessarily mean he is egocentric or selfish. Personally, I think he is getting bad advice, most likely from his father. Dad's attitude is that Baertschi deserves an NHL spot now and has gone out of his way to ensure the world knows. Guaranteed he is telling Baertschi the same things.

So when you have guy who is still quite impressionable, who is frustrated at being demoted (as anyone would be), and is hearing from a trusted source that he deserves better, it becomes easy to believe. End result is that Sven doesn't go down to the AHL with a good attitude (implied by comments from minor league coaches that "his attitude has improved"), that cycles back up to Burke, Treliving and Hartley, and the whole thing snowballs.

So the questions going forward for Vancouver are (1) how do they manage daddy's ego, and (2) what happens if the Canucks expect structured play out of Sven tha the still isn't willing to do, and (3) what happens if they give him his top-six role and he fails to produce?

The Canucks feel he is worth the risk of a 2nd rounder. But what they are saying now is what we were saying three years ago. They have the advantage that he is three years more mature, physically and mentally.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by the2bears

I think this misrepresents, or at least simplifies too much, the Glencross case. Had dollars and term made sense, he would have signed in Calgary. Sven was simply not going to re-sign, no matter what, while Glencross was a case of negotiations being too far apart.

I think had the Flames promised Sven a spot in Calgary he would have re-signed. That and Glencross getting what he wanted here were equally unrealistic IMO.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think had the Flames promised Sven a spot in Calgary he would have re-signed. That and Glencross getting what he wanted here were equally uneralitsic IMO.

Maybe, or you can compare one player not signing for less than market value with another player not signing without the guarantee of an unearned slot on the roster.

Edit: translated, I look at it this way: People seem to think Glencross has earned the contract he will be seeking. I don't think most would think Sven has earned a top-6 role on the big club.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

The trade request and ultimatum tells me all I need to know, thanks. The dude was prepared to play in Europe rather that wear our icky jersey. All before his ELC had even expired and before he had proven a damned thing.

The dude wanted to wear "our icky jersey" - he wanted to be a Calgary Flame. He didn't come halfway across the world to play in front of 2500 fans in Glens Falls and see his team sign free agents at his position.

He came here to play in the NHL, and coaching staff here had no interest in him. The timing for his trade request was probably the February callup, where he had a strong game yet got benched for taking an accidental penalty and never saw NHL ice again.

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

In fairness, he informed the team he would not re-sign (as is his right), after he felt the org had given up on him.

To me, the issue with Sven relates to the bolded part. Just a guess, but I suspect he thought the org had given up on him long before they actually did.

By all accounts, he's a great guy but he just doesn't seem to have the tools or the fire to deal with adversity.

I wish him well and hope he succeeds, but (as has been mentioned in this thread) he's on the Canucks clock now.

[Bingo]

Baertschi's quotes throughout his time in Calgary (past two years) suggest serious self doubt and a rattled confidence.

Those are huge warning signs, for a player trying to play a professional sport at the highest level in a skill position.

The teams has dressed 25 rookie hockey players in the last three seasons, turning 5 of them into regulars, with a few more pressing right now. This isn't a team that hampers development at all.

Baertschi seems like a good guy, but if the thinks Calgary has gotten in his way he should have a chat with some dudes that play in Grand Rapids.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Pure speculation on my part, but I think Baertschi didn't like Hartley. In short, Hartley is very emotionally hard on guys that don't do what he wants (I do believe he has changed over the years though, if not he would have lost the locker room a long time ago). If Baertschi is mentally weak (which he seems to be), he is not a good mix with Hartley (speaking from experience).

As far as Baertschi goes, he was 100 percent against re-signing, the only person he would deal with on a daily basis is Hartley. He and Burke had rumoured problems, but really how often do players see/talk to Burke on an annual basis? Also Treliving seemed to like Baertschi.

Hartley wasn't going anywhere, after signing the multi year deal, so it makes sense that Baertschi wanted out. If a new coach/philosophy was coming in next season, he might have stuck around. He wanted change, I think.

Again, all speculation on my part, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me. I hate writing stuff like this, but I felt I needed to give my opinion.

I know if it was between Hartley and Baertschi, you always have to side with the coach.

[dino7c]

If Sven wanted to force the clubs hand he could have gone down to the AHL and dominated, as usual he was outplayed by others. Not sure why some always blame the organization if Sven would have played better he would be in the NHL for the Flames right now he didn't.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Maybe, or you can compare one player not signing for less than market value with another player not signing without the guarantee of an unearned slot on the roster.

Edit: translated, I look at it this way: People seem to think Glencross has earned the contract he will be seeking. I don't think most would think Sven has earned a top-6 role on the big club.

I agree with you. I'm not saying both positions were equally valid - I just felt that the chances of Glencross getting what he was reportedly asking (market value or not) from the Flames were about the same as Sven getting a guaranteed spot. In fact, I'm right about that because neither happened.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Again, all speculation on my part, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me. I hate writing stuff like this, but I felt I needed to give my opinion.

I suspect it wasn't even that far gone on Sven's part. Reality is Sven's Agent happens to be Niederreider's agent and this guy's a power-trip fata:

http://islanderspointblank.com/news/...o-swiss-press/

Q: “Was the request for of a trade your idea or Nino’s?”
A: “It was solely mine and I told Nino how I will proceed and that I take the responsability for it. This is not a hasty action. I have deliberated that step and asked several sides for advice.”

[mile]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Pure speculation on my part, but I think Baertschi didn't like Hartley.

I think that has been assumed to be the case for a while now.

On one hand I'm disappointed things didn't work out - I really thought he would eventually establish himself here with the open spots we would have next season.

At the same time though, I'm glad he's gone so I don't have to hang on to the hope that he could turn it around. Sven leaving was inevitable. A 2nd round pick is a solid return considering the circumstances. His emergency recall stint reminded me how exciting bringing in young players can be for this team, but it also led Feaster's mishandling of him.

He's a really good player with the puck on his stick, but that's pointless if he only touches the puck a few times a game. Learning to battle and retrieve the puck when he doesn't have it was something he has really struggled with. If he was effective along the boards as much as a guy like Hudler is, he would easily be a top six forward.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

They both weren't getting what they wanted and refused to sign. Who's doing the spinning here?

One demanded a trade and said he would never play here again under any circumstances. The other decided the KHL was better than the AHL for him for that season, but left the door open for a return after he proved himself/developed his game. Unless there something I'm missing here, I really don't see how they are comparable situations at all.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

One demanded a trade and said he would never play here again under any circumstances.

Did he? He said that? I'm surprised.

Are you sure you're not casting this in the worst light possible to make yourself feel better about things?

Maybe worth thinking about.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

One demanded a trade and said he would never play here again under any circumstances. The other decided the KHL was better than the AHL for him for that season, but left the door open for a return after he proved himself/developed his game. Unless there something I'm missing here, I really don't see how they are comparable situations at all.

That's some nice spinning

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Selfish? Egocentric?

You won't find a single person with anything bad to say about Baertschi as a person, in fact the opposite. He felt he wasn't going to get a chance, so he used the only currency he had. This isn't your average career path, things need to go right for a hockey player to make the NHL.

I'm sorry you're so upset about it all, but inserting character flaws is a little ridiculous

This is the problem everyone is trying to characterise the a "character flaw" to mean the same thing. IF Sven has a character flaw (for the record I think he does as it relates to his ability to make and be a solid NHL player), it's not that he's an ego maniac, or that he's an A-hole. I agree with what's being said, for everything I've heard sounds like he's a nice, well liked individual. The character flaw he seems to have is how he responds to adversity. He doesn't seem to want to fight through it, or use it as a catalyst, instead, he wants to run away from it.

The Gio example is a good one. Two guys hit adversity in their development, both essentially being running into the same thing, which is a discrepancy between where they saw themselves in their development curve versus where the team saw them. The debate in each case on who was right, the team or the player actually doesn't really matter. What matters is what type of person do you want in the organisation, one that responds the way Gio did, or one that responds the way Sven did. To me the answer is simple.

Whether Sven has NHL talent is debatable at this point, but he might. But if he does, that doesn't change the fact that it won't amount to anything unless he responds to adversity the next time he faces it in his career and each time beyond that differently then he has to date. Sven though, is also young enough, that I think there is ample opportunity for him to change how he approaches these situation as he grows, so it's very possible. If he does, Vancouver may just have a player on their hands, if not, he'll be in Europe in 2 years or less. Unfortunate for the Flames that Sven didn't reach that maturity point before the clock ran out this year on his opportunity to have his realization with this org, and that sucks for the Flames, but it I guess you can't really change that and have to move on and do what is right in the moment, which is what the Flames did.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

While true, that doesn't necessarily mean he is egocentric or selfish. Personally, I think he is getting bad advice, most likely from his father. Dad's attitude is that Baertschi deserves an NHL spot now and has gone out of his way to ensure the world knows. Guaranteed he is telling Baertschi the same things.

So when you have guy who is still quite impressionable, who is frustrated at being demoted (as anyone would be), and is hearing from a trusted source that he deserves better, it becomes easy to believe. End result is that Sven doesn't go down to the AHL with a good attitude (implied by comments from minor league coaches that "his attitude has improved"), that cycles back up to Burke, Treliving and Hartley, and the whole thing snowballs.

I suppose this could be true. If that is the case, I feel sorry for Baertschi, it sounds like he has a lot of growing up to do. The average 22 year old isn't this susceptible to their parents meddling in their lives.

Besides Feaster, I really can't fault any of the management for Baertschi's downfall. He was obviously rushed, and perhaps that led to Sven's issues. I just don't see how Burke or especially Treliving are to blame here. If anything, they were trying to undo Feaster's hyping/rushing him and shrink his head a bit. Damage was already done.

It was how Sven's camp reacted to the team deciding that pumping his tires wasn't the best way to get him to be more of a team player, to see the bigger picture, that was the catalyst for all this IMO. Shame it didn't work out better, but even if Baertschi didn't need to be handled with kid gloves, I don't think he is good enough to play here anyway. We have lots of forward prospects that are just as good or better and don't have daddy issues as baggage or such issues with confidence/maturity. Only so many spots available and there are lots of other options going forward.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Did he? He said that? I'm surprised.

Are you sure you're not casting this in the worst light possible to make yourself feel better about things?

Maybe worth thinking about.

FFS, he said he wasn't going to sign here, what more do you need? Sorry I didn't get the exact words/quote from his mouth. You're splitting hairs here.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

FFS, he said he wasn't going to sign here, what more do you need? Sorry I didn't get the exact words/quote from his mouth. You're splitting hairs here.

"I don't think things are working out for me here, so I'd like it if you could find a way to move me. If not, I'm due for a new contract next year anyway, and I'll look elsewhere to get a fresh start then."

"I DEMAND you trade me to another team! I will not be re-signing and I will NEVER play for this organization under any circumstances!"

Both are plausible guesses as to how this went down. You chose to cast it as the latter. Gosh, I wonder why?