Israel declares war on Hamas

[Pointman]

Now, some people claim that Israel is not really trying to destroy Hamas, but intentionally keeps it (barely) alive as an excuse to destroy the whole Gaza population. This argument is wrong, however it is a legit argument that needs to be addressed.

1. This posits, that Netanyahu can completely destroy Hamas and return hostages at any time, but doesn't want to, because then he would have no excuse to murder whole Gaza.

Reality is that destroying Hamas, returning hostages and subsequently ending the war would give Netanyahu much more political points than murdering the whole Gaza population. Hamas is universally accepted as evil, everyone agrees that hostages should be returned and most, including inside Israel, want this war to be stopped. On the other hand, destroying whole Gaza will give Netanyahu nothing. He would be persona non grata, at best, around the world and will be hated, if not prosecuted, at home because of his failure to return hostages.

2. There is no rational reason neither for Netanyahu as a person, nor for Jews as a nation to murder two million people in Gaza. The only reason could be that Jews are driven by some innate hate to Arabs. If this was the case, however, we would have seen some pogrom-like mutinees against Israeli Arabs. Which we don't see. Israeli Arabs, who are the same Arabs as Gazans, except happened to be born 20 kilometers more towards north, are enjoying freedom of religion and education on their own language. Somehow Israeli Arabs do not protest against Israel actions in Gaza, nor do Jews seem to be trying to eradicate them.

3. Even if we assume that Israel is trying to destroy the whole Gaza population, they appear to choose a very slow and strange way to do it. At current pace it would take them 50 years. So, we must assume that Netanyahu is betting on being able to keep troops in and around Gaza for 50 years and continuing alleged genocide. Even if we assume that Netanyahu has no morals (which is true, he's politician after all), it's just unsustainably costly for Israel to do.

What is really happening is more like a siege. Blocking access to food has been a part of a siege for centuries. It's a way to compel an opponent to surrender. It is inhumane, and so is everything about a war. However, there's massive difference between trying to win a war and trying to murder tge whole population, and what is happening is the former.

Proof: Hezbollah surrendered and Israel left Lebanon alone. Israel didn't went on to destroy the whole Lebanon population. Somehow pro-Gazans never recall that.

[undercoverbrother]

Oh yay

Pointman is back posting in this thread

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

One dead and 48 injured after Israeli soldiers open fire at Gaza food point


The UN and other humanitarian organisations have rejected the new system for food distribution, saying it would not be able to meet the needs of Gaza’s 2.3 million people and allowed Israel to use food as a weapon to control the population. They have also said there was a risk of friction between Israeli troops and hungry people seeking supplies.

The organisations added that the newly formed group had no experience and so would not be able to handle the logistics of feeding more than 2 million people in a devastated combat zone, a prediction the dangerous scenes on Tuesday appeared to confirm.


The head of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (Unrwa), Philippe Lazzarini, said on Wednesday that the new – US-backed – distribution model was a waste of resources and a distraction from “atrocities”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-point-reports

Funny how you don't even read your own links: "It was not immediately clear if Israeli forces, private contractors or others had opened fire".

Less funny: UN, UNRWA and "others" are somehow REJECTING (??) new food distribution centers!? I mean, those new centers do distribute food, not even Hamas is debating that, and the population is undeniably starving. So how can anyone be AGAINST it?? It should be unequivocally viewed as good? Claiming that they wouldn't be able to feed whole 2 millions is comical, as they are at least able to feed some of it. Shouldn't we be praising anyone, who is feeding those starving people? How can one call it a "waste" of resources when starving people are getting food?

Instead, it seems, UNRWA is concerned with their own hold on political power rather than with feeding people, which is what they were created for

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You are confusing Gaza and West Bank. Nobody wants Gaza. Israel offered it to Egypt in 1978 and they declined. Gaza is a desert strip with 2 millions of people sitting there waiting for the next truck of food. Nobody wants to govern that. The coast line does have some turism potential, but there are many coast lines in the world, also still many unused coastlines in Israel itself.

I'm not confusing anything, you ghoul. I'm pointing out the people committing genocide in Gaza are the same people stealing the land in the West Bank, with the same goal as they have always have, which you stand behind, which is to take all the land from the river to the sea as Israel, and #### the innocent people who are struggling to exist as humans.


I'm not shocked at all to hear you haven't changed one bit, and still give zero ####s about the inhumane monstrosities being committed by the country you chose to make home, and now stand behind in their actions and support them, twisting facts and logic in Putinesque ways to justify in your head why it's OK to do this to people. It's not ####ing OK.





https://www.instagram.com/reel/C54H1n9PLyX/


This is NOT OK. I don't give a #### about whatever history you want to write in your head about things in the past and how they permit Israel to act this way. This has to stop. And people like you are in the way of that. Knock it the #### off already, and grow a sliver of humanity.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm not confusing anything, you ghoul. I'm pointing out the people committing genocide in Gaza are the same people stealing the land in the West Bank, with the same goal as they have always have, which you stand behind, which is to take all the land from the river to the sea as Israel, and #### the innocent people who are struggling to exist as humans.


I'm not shocked at all to hear you haven't changed one bit, and still give zero ####s about the inhumane monstrosities being committed by the country you chose to make home, and now stand behind in their actions and support them, twisting facts and logic in Putinesque ways to justify in your head why it's OK to do this to people. It's not ####ing OK.





https://www.instagram.com/reel/C54H1n9PLyX/


This is NOT OK. I don't give a #### about whatever history you want to write in your head about things in the past and how they permit Israel to act this way. This has to stop. And people like you are in the way of that. Knock it the #### off already, and grow a sliver of humanity.

I actually do. I always stand by these:

1. What's going on is a war. Not genocide. Not some kind of an evil previously unseen. It's a usual regular war. All wars in the history of mankind were more or less like this. In fact, I don't recall many wars where an opponent army would be handing out food to an adversarial population.

2. Wars, in turn, are horrible. They are absolute nightmares. Totally inhumane. They definitely need to stop. The whole concept of "war crime" is fundamentally flawed, as a war itself is a crime and nearly every action during a war is a crime. And this includes a lot of Israel what army is doing. Forcing a civilian to clear a tunnel from traps is a good example. It makes perfect sense from military standpoint. If I'm a soldier, I would do the same. I'm pretty sure that you would do as well. It is also a crime. That's the horrible nature of wars.


You just understand that you can't win a debate so you are trying to paint me as a ghoul, which looks weak after you said that Ukrainians have every right to kill Russian civilians... And I never said that Israelis have a "right" to kill Gazans..

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You said that Ukrainians have every right to kill Russian civilians. Did you change your mind on that?

Israel isn't trying to destroy the entire nation. If they are, they are on pace to spend 50 years on that, as they have only destroyed about 2% of population, according to Hamas figures.

Using civilians to clear the tunnels from traps is a way to prevent soldiers from being killed. If I'm a soldier, I would also send some civilian to clear it instead of risking my own life. It's perfectly understandable situation. You could be against it, that would be legitimate argument. Trying to sell it as a proof of genocidal intentions sounds phony.

Because you think you win every time you post that, let's look again at the reality of what I posted:

Originally Posted by Pointman

This makes me feel a bit vulnerable. Tver is relatively close to Moscow, about an hour on a speedy train. What next? Can Ukranians retaliate with bombing train stations and such?...

Originally Posted by Fuzz

They have every right to at this point.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...postcount=5625

Russia started a war where they are bombing schools and daycares. You felt concerned Ukraine might retaliate by hitting Russian infrastructure. I said I felt Ukraine was justified at this point, because they are the victims of an overpowering oppressive nation seeking to make them not exist anymore and committing monstrous acts against the innocent civilian population. I felt the leverage Ukraine has to turn Russian sentiment against Putin might help stop the war. That would be justified.

You now attempt to use that twisted logic to justify why it's also OK that Israel murder children daily and that's somehow logically consistent with my position. I get that you don't see how both things could be true in different situations, but that's because you are a ghoul.

[BigThief]

The United Nations called it a genocide a year ago, Amnesty International back in December. Like we get it Pointman, you've always been a bit of a gross character refusing to admit flaws in the countries you live in and support but no one is buying it anymore, and few did at the start. Thanking a post that labels the LBGTQ community as a "...completely immoral and unnatural "lifestyle" is a pretty gross look. It's not the bigotry I would like to be associated with, but you do you. And your talking points here doesn't shock anyone.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Because you think you win every time you post that, let's look again at the reality of what I posted:


https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...postcount=5625

Russia started a war where they are bombing schools and daycares. You felt concerned Ukraine might retaliate by hitting Russian infrastructure. I said I felt Ukraine was justified at this point, because they are the victims of an overpowering oppressive nation seeking to make them not exist anymore and committing monstrous acts against the innocent civilian population. I felt the leverage Ukraine has to turn Russian sentiment against Putin might help stop the war. That would be justified.

You now attempt to use that twisted logic to justify why it's also OK that Israel murder children daily and that's somehow logically consistent with my position. I get that you don't see how both things could be true in different situations, but that's because you are a ghoul.

Nope, my post started with "I feel vulnerable", implying that I feel like I can be killed by a Ukrainian attack on civilian infrastructure. For what it worth, attacking civilian infrastructure is a war crime precisely because civilians can be hurt. That being said, I generally reject the concept of war crimes. Also you keep saying that I "keep saying that it's ok to murder children", even though I never said that and in fact said the opposite. To be clear, nothing about Gaza war is ok. Nothing. Including, specifically for you, the actions of IDF such as killing children.

I mostly agree with you on Russia - Ukraine war. In fact, my views on Gaza - Israel war are largely rooted in my observation of Russian population before the war. I came to conclusion that Russian population let the war happened because they, even though they didn't support the war itself, felt invincible. Had Russian public felt that they - not Putin or generals - would be punished for starting the war, the nightmarish Ukrainian war would have never happened. I came to this conclusion before 07.10.2023. I also agreed a couple of times, that I as Russian civilian do bear some guilt for letting the war happened.

So the root of my views is that wars happen because the civilian population of the aggressor feels invincible. And this view is rooted in Russian war, not in Gaza war.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by BigThief

The United Nations called it a genocide a year ago, Amnesty International back in December. Like we get it Pointman, you've always been a bit of a gross character refusing to admit flaws in the countries you live in and support but no one is buying it anymore, and few did at the start. Thanking a post that labels the LBGTQ community as a "...completely immoral and unnatural "lifestyle" is a pretty gross look. It's not the bigotry I would like to be associated with, but you do you. And your talking points here doesn't shock anyone.

Both UN and Amnesty are pushing their own agendas. Even before 07.10.2023 UN approved more resolutions against Israel than against any other countries in the world. Just a few posts above UN rejected an idea to give Palestinians food because the distribution wouldn't go through their own agency (isn't it outrageous regardless of where you stand on the war itself??!!)

That thanked post was in regards of not allowing to wear rainbows on hockey uniforms in Sochi Olympics. I stand by that. For example, I'm all for women equity, yet if you travel to Arab country, you do cover your hair. They are a host and you are a guest. I'm also atheist. Yet I wouldn't approve going to an Olympic in a Muslim country wearing something like "you know there's no God up there" sign on every player. My views in LGBT have been explained in other threads. I don't recall me calling them immoral. I've been pretty vocal about flaws on Russia. Both regarding the Ukrainian war and on other topics. I don't recall me posting about flaws of Israel because there was never a topic. If you care, Shabbat tradition is very flawed and is indirectly responsible for this war.

Regardless, it looks like you gave up on discussing the actual topic and instead try to defame me in order to make my arguments look as weak as possible or better yet make me leave so you could post falsehood unchallenged. Which means you are unable to sustain the actual debate about the Gaza war.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by Pointman

That post was in regards of not allowing to wear rainbows on hockey uniforms in Sochi Olympics. I threads.

The thread was, that specific post was homphobic hatred, and you thanked it. You don't let the veil slip often, I'll give you that.

Defame you? I think it's important to know the messenger as well as the message. Sorry about that.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by BigThief

The thread was, that specific post was homphobic hatred, and you thanked it. You don't let the veil slip often, I'll give you that.

Defame you? I think it's important to know the messenger as well as the message. Sorry about that.

If you feel like my views on LGBTQ are somehow relevant, you could link my post where I explained them. You can say many things about me, but I'm definitely not "veiling" my views. The only thing I'm actively against is religion. On LGBTQ I'm not a fan on personal level, but I don't hate them. I understand they are who they are and let them be. Growing up as an ethnic minority and being bullied as a Jew, I don't hate or even dislike people based on ethnicity at all. It's particularly wrong to assume that I dislike Arabs, as I hadn't met a single Arab in my formation years. And USSR media I saw as a child portrayed Arabs positively. I'm also not very white.

It also should be noted, that Jews in general, are very much pro LGBTQ and in fact have started the Pride Month today. Which means that there's no correlation between my LGBTQ views and my opinion on Gaza war.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Regardless, it looks like you gave up on discussing the actual topic and instead try to defame me in order to make my arguments look as weak as possible or better yet make me leave so you could post falsehood unchallenged. Which means you are unable to sustain the actual debate about the Gaza war.

You just spent hours spreading falsehoods, misrepresenting peoples’ points, and are now crying “debate me! why won’t anyone debate me!!! you’re not debating me right!!!” and you’re honestly blaming others for making you look like a ghoul with weak arguments? Sorry, colour everyone surprised that a pro-Russian, pro-Israel government debate pervert is doing that all by himself.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Both UN and Amnesty are pushing their own agendas. Even before 07.10.2023 UN approved more resolutions against Israel than against any other countries in the world. Just a few posts above UN rejected an idea to give Palestinians food because the distribution wouldn't go through their own agency (isn't it outrageous regardless of where you stand on the war itself??!!)

That thanked post was in regards of not allowing to wear rainbows on hockey uniforms in Sochi Olympics. I stand by that. For example, I'm all for women equity, yet if you travel to Arab country, you do cover your hair. They are a host and you are a guest. I'm also atheist. Yet I wouldn't approve going to an Olympic in a Muslim country wearing something like "you know there's no God up there" sign on every player. My views in LGBT have been explained in other threads. I don't recall me calling them immoral. I've been pretty vocal about flaws on Russia. Both regarding the Ukrainian war and on other topics. I don't recall me posting about flaws of Israel because there was never a topic. If you care, Shabbat tradition is very flawed and is indirectly responsible for this war.

Regardless, it looks like you gave up on discussing the actual topic and instead try to defame me in order to make my arguments look as weak as possible or better yet make me leave so you could post falsehood unchallenged. Which means you are unable to sustain the actual debate about the Gaza war.

It's not outrageous at all. Perhaps you should look in to what is happening instead of pretending agencies with the best of intentions for humanity are behaving outrageously. There are many good reasons to be concerned with Israel controlling this.

When the UN had been delivering aid before Israel's humanitarian blockade, there were 400 distribution points spread across Gaza. Under the present GHF distribution system there currently are four known sites.

"By and large, it's designed to dramatically increase the concentration of the population by having the only sources of food remaining in a very small number of places," said Chris Newton, a senior analyst at the Brussels-based think tank Crisis Group.

"You either follow all their rules and probably survive in a small radius around these sites or you are very unlikely to survive."

The presence of armed security and Israeli soldiers at or near the distribution sites has also alarmed experts, who said it undermined faith in aid operations.

"Distributing assistance in this kind of environment is extremely difficult. [It's] much more effectively done when you are trying to work with, and through, the people there… rather than at the point of a mercenary's gun," said Prof Stuart Gordon at the London School of Economics.

But many are still returning from distribution sites without boxes for their families.

"I am empty-handed like God created me," said Hani Abed outside the centre near Netzarim on Thursday.


"I came empty-handed and I left empty-handed."

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn4g0xmem2lo

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You just spent hours spreading falsehoods, misrepresenting peoples’ points, and are now crying “debate me! why won’t anyone debate me!!! you’re not debating me right!!!” and you’re honestly blaming others for making you look like a ghoul with weak arguments? Sorry, colour everyone surprised that a pro-Russian, pro-Israel government debate pervert is doing that all by himself.

I never intentionally misrepresent people's points. It does happen, though, that people unintentionally misrepresent others points in an internet debate. I'm sure it happened to me too. I'm sorry for that.

You don't really have to debate "me", you can just disprove "falsehoods" and defeat talking points. Yes, I'm looking for that. The reason why I'm here is because I have a certain view on this war. And I genuinely want to see which of my views are wrong. What do pro-Gaza people think. Could be that something that I accept aa a fact is actually wrong. Could be that some facts or some strong logic of which I'm not aware can change my my mind.

I also don't get what makes you think that I'm pro-Russian. I'm decisively pro-Ukranian. I took my kids to Haifa consulate on 24.02.24 to tell them about that war. Or do you mean that aside from a war I said that Russia is a nice country to live? It's just true. It's very modern progressive country, that made its own coronavirus vaccine and led the world in space launches.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I never intentionally misrepresent people's points. It does happen, though, that people unintentionally misrepresent others points in an internet debate. I'm sure it happened to me too. I'm sorry for that.

You don't really have to debate "me", you can just disprove "falsehoods" and defeat talking points. Yes, I'm looking for that. The reason why I'm here is because I have a certain view on this war. And I genuinely want to see which of my views are wrong. What do pro-Gaza people think. Could be that something that I accept aa a fact is actually wrong. Could be that some facts or some strong logic of which I'm not aware can change my my mind.

I also don't get what makes you think that I'm pro-Russian. I'm decisively pro-Ukranian. I took my kids to Haifa consulate on 24.02.24 to tell them about that war. Or do you mean that aside from a war I said that Russia is a nice country to live? It's just true. It's very modern progressive country, that made its own coronavirus vaccine and led the world in space launches.

Homosexuality was officially removed from the Russian list of mental illnesses in 1999 (after the endorsement of the World Health Organization's ICD-10 classifications). However, there is a movement within Russia to bring it back.[47] The Russian government introduced new laws on 1 July 2023 to effectively reinstate the classification of homosexuality as a mental illness.[48]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_...rent_situation

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's not outrageous at all. Perhaps you should look in to what is happening instead of pretending agencies with the best of intentions for humanity are behaving outrageously. There are many good reasons to be concerned with Israel controlling this.



https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn4g0xmem2lo

All it says is that there are too few centers and not enough food. That's correct. There will be more centers and more food. So, what they could say, is that it's good initiative and they support, rather than reject, it, but it should be more of it.

And for the record, Israel doesn't control it. It's US private company protected by contractors who operate it.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_...rent_situation

I was not in Russia by 2023 and definitely never commented on that law change. I actually wasn't even aware, as Russian laws regarding LGBTQ are the last thing of my mind. I never said that LGBTQ is mental illness nor supported thar law. But if you care about my opinion, it is NOT a mental illness.I even agree that this law change makes it less of a progressive country. It's also off topic for this thread. Most Israelis, who support war or even those who, unlike me, hate Palestinians, are very pro-LGBTQ. So there's no correlation between my LGBTQ views and my views on Gaza.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Pointman

All it says is that there are too few centers and not enough food. That's correct. There will be more centers and more food. So, what they could say, is that it's good initiative and they support, rather than reject, it, but it should be more of it.

And for the record, Israel doesn't control it. It's US private company protected by contractors who operate it.

The Gaza Humanitarian Foundation is a new US and Israel-backed organisation that has been distributing food at designated sites across Gaza. Israel set up the plan after accusing Hamas of stealing aid, which the group denies.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c991j01lym3o


Maybe take a look into who the GHF is, who is behind it, and what their motivations might be instead of questioning why NGO's aren't praising them.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c991j01lym3o


Maybe take a look into who the GHF is, who is behind it, and what their motivations might be instead of questioning why NGO's aren't praising them.

Their motivation is irrelevant as long, as they are feeding people who are starving. Also, any suggestion about their motivation is a pure guess at this point. Unless you imply that the plan is to draw a lot of civilians to a food center and kill them, which is stupid because:

1. USA itself, as a distributor, would be accused of war crimes.
2. IDF could kill Gazans anyway, there's no need for a "fake" food distribution as a draw
3. You can only do it a couple of times before people stop biting for this. Makes no sense.

[Fuzz]

The motivation IS important. If their goal is to replace other aid agencies, but do it in a ####ty way that doesn't provide the necessary aid, but also keeps other agencies out, you don't see how this is a devious way of continuing the starvation while pretending to be helping?


Or, as mentioned in the articles, the apparent goal of consolidating aid in a few areas, forcing the civilization population to be near them and empty areas of Gaza Israel wants them out of so they can take it?


If you can't even question motives, then you are far too trusting of people who have proven their evilness and goals over and over.