Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Cappy

The "woke" left is merely a fringe screaming on social media about gender fluidity and racial (over?)inclusion. hardly the boogeyman to be taken seriously.

Unless you work in academia, the arts, or media and place a high value in open discourse - as most of the signatories to this letter do.

A Letter on Justice and Open Debate

…The free exchange of information and ideas, the lifeblood of a liberal society, is daily becoming more constricted. While we have come to expect this on the radical right, censoriousness is also spreading more widely in our culture: an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty. We uphold the value of robust and even caustic counter-speech from all quarters. But it is now all too common to hear calls for swift and severe retribution in response to perceived transgressions of speech and thought. More troubling still, institutional leaders, in a spirit of panicked damage control, are delivering hasty and disproportionate punishments instead of considered reforms. Editors are fired for running controversial pieces; books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity; journalists are barred from writing on certain topics; professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class; a researcher is fired for circulating a peer-reviewed academic study; and the heads of organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy mistakes. Whatever the arguments around each particular incident, the result has been to steadily narrow the boundaries of what can be said without the threat of reprisal. We are already paying the price in greater risk aversion among writers, artists, and journalists who fear for their livelihoods if they depart from the consensus, or even lack sufficient zeal in agreement.

https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-just...d-open-debate/

One of the signatories of the letter, Margaret Atwood, commenting about the attack on Salman Rushdie (another signatory) had this to say about free speech:

Once a yawn-making liberal platitude, this concept has now become a hot-button issue, since the extreme right has attempted to kidnap it in the service of libel, lies and hatred, and the extreme left has tried to toss it out the window in the service of its version of earthly perfection.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...satanic-verses

Just last week the president of the American Historical Association was denounced by a furious mob of activists for expressing mild and judicious criticism of the 1619 project.

https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=14258

To salvage his career he issued a grovelling statement of contrition that reads like something out of a 1920s show trial.

https://www.historians.org/publicati...of-the-present

[Fuzz]

Cliff, you can sit there and dig for false equivalencies all day long, and while there are certainly concerns from the left, you have to be blinder than Stevie Wonder to somehow think the threat to society is graver from the left than the right.

You can't tell me with a straight face Notley is more damaging to the core of democracy than Danielle Smith. That society would somehow be better with that wing nut's fanciful ideas of how society should function as a libertarian dream land, where only she gets to decide what laws are and are not worth obeying.

But hey, someone on the left said they are uncomfortable with lies being spewed by organizations like Rebel News, the Western Standard, The Frasier Institute, and the massive gaggle of delusional fanatical gun toting morons harassing health care workers for saving their stupid lives and doing something as basic as their job.

Honestly man, your blindness to reality has to be your biggest fault. Your endless attempts here over the years to "well look at this though" the discussion to minimize real issues are transparent, and frankly as damaging to our society as the nutjobs I've already mentioned. But hey, keep it up.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Read this thread. If he's a plant then I'm Peter Pan.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1563700943946158081

Clearly a Liberal plant

[Locke]

Lol! His name is McDavid!

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Cliff, you can sit there and dig for false equivalencies all day long, and while there are certainly concerns from the left, you have to be blinder than Stevie Wonder to somehow think the threat to society is graver from the left than the right.

You can't tell me with a straight face Notley is more damaging to the core of democracy than Danielle Smith. That society would somehow be better with that wing nut's fanciful ideas of how society should function as a libertarian dream land, where only she gets to decide what laws are and are not worth obeying.

But hey, someone on the left said they are uncomfortable with lies being spewed by organizations like Rebel News, the Western Standard, The Frasier Institute, and the massive gaggle of delusional fanatical gun toting morons harassing health care workers for saving their stupid lives and doing something as basic as their job.

Honestly man, your blindness to reality has to be your biggest fault. Your endless attempts here over the years to "well look at this though" the discussion to minimize real issues are transparent, and frankly as damaging to our society as the nutjobs I've already mentioned. But hey, keep it up.

Why do we continually falsely call Notley Left and Smith right like their is equal distance to the middle. Notley is a centrist leaning left. We don’t have the equivalent left politicians.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Read this thread. If he's a plant then I'm Peter Pan.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1563700943946158081

They won't do the work or openly admit it, but this ideology has been deeply rooted in the prairies since I was a child (early 80s.) And that's just from memory and likely has been in the grassroots much longer than that.

I thinks it's extremely disingenuous to say Trumpy American politics have rubbed off up here when it's been here the whole time. Only thing that has changed is that SM have given them a platform to grow and group up. And Trump has gleefully led the charge.

And I for one belive that if a serious and organized movement does happen, it's going to happen here first. The sheer rage coming from people I love is ..... frightening.

[calculoso]

Completely agree

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by dammage79

They won't do the work or openly admit it, but this ideology has been deeply rooted in the prairies since I was a child (early 80s.) And that's just from memory and likely has been in the grassroots much longer than that.

I thinks it's extremely disingenuous to say Trumpy American politics have rubbed off up here when it's been here the whole time. Only thing that has changed is that SM have given them a platform to grow and group up. And Trump has gleefully led the charge.

And I for one belive that if a serious and organized movement does happen, it's going to happen here first. The sheer rage coming from people I love is ..... frightening.

This is going to manifest with Smith becoming the premier, isn't it?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Unless you work in academia, the arts, or media and place a high value in open discourse - as most of the signatories to this letter do.



One of the signatories of the letter, Margaret Atwood, commenting about the attack on Salman Rushdie (another signatory) had this to say about free speech:



Just last week the president of the American Historical Association was denounced by a furious mob of activists for expressing mild and judicious criticism of the 1619 project.

https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=14258

To salvage his career he issued a grovelling statement of contrition that reads like something out of a 1920s show trial.

https://www.historians.org/publicati...of-the-present

None of those people can be expressed as prominent political figures of the left...

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Cliff, you can sit there and dig for false equivalencies all day long, and while there are certainly concerns from the left, you have to be blinder than Stevie Wonder to somehow think the threat to society is graver from the left than the right.

You can't tell me with a straight face Notley is more damaging to the core of democracy than Danielle Smith. That society would somehow be better with that wing nut's fanciful ideas of how society should function as a libertarian dream land, where only she gets to decide what laws are and are not worth obeying.

But hey, someone on the left said they are uncomfortable with lies being spewed by organizations like Rebel News, the Western Standard, The Frasier Institute, and the massive gaggle of delusional fanatical gun toting morons harassing health care workers for saving their stupid lives and doing something as basic as their job.

Honestly man, your blindness to reality has to be your biggest fault. Your endless attempts here over the years to "well look at this though" the discussion to minimize real issues are transparent, and frankly as damaging to our society as the nutjobs I've already mentioned. But hey, keep it up.

Do you think Atwood was making a false equivalency? And all the other people who have raised the issue of the censorious left (Rushdie, Noam Chomsky, Stephen Fry, etc)?

I’m only saying the same thing dozens of prominent liberals (and millions of regular people) have been saying for years: You don’t have to think the intolerant, illiberal left is as big a problem as the far right to think it’s a problem worth recognizing. You can dislike two threats to liberal principles at the same time.

It seems you can’t. But my outlook is far more common than people like you want to recognize - I’d wager it’s actually the norm IRL. It’s only rare on forums like this because by its nature social media is polarizing.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by GGG

Why do we continually falsely call Notley Left and Smith right like their is equal distance to the middle. Notley is a centrist leaning left. We don’t have the equivalent left politicians.

Because that’s how divisive tactics work GGG

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do you think Atwood was making a false equivalency? And all the other people who have raised the issue of the censorious left (Rushdie, Noam Chomsky, Stephen Fry, etc)?

I’m only saying the same thing dozens of prominent liberals (and millions of regular people) have been saying for years: You don’t have to think the intolerant, illiberal left is as big a problem as the far right to think it’s a problem worth recognizing. You can dislike two political movements at the same time.

It seems you can’t. But my outlook is far more common than people like you want to recognize - I’d wager it’s actually the norm IRL. It’s only rare on forums like this because by its nature social media is polarizing.

Forums like this???

One that selects middle aged flames fans who were technologically savvy in their youth? Yeah that seems like a socialist selection network.

The question here is why did you start speaking on this false equivalency this time? There was one comment that the ultra left is as bad as the ultra right and then you jumped in.

The correct response at that point in time would have been to point out the ultra left in Alberta does not have a path to political power right now and through some of the leadership candidates in the UCP the ultra right does. So while you can dislike two political movements at the same time when talking about Notley vs who the UCP elects it is disingenuous to bring up the conversation like it’s aomehow relevant.

[RedHot25]

Some self-reflection in this thread would work wonders.

But alas, here we are.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do you think Atwood was making a false equivalency? And all the other people who have raised the issue of the censorious left (Rushdie, Noam Chomsky, Stephen Fry, etc)?

I’m only saying the same thing dozens of prominent liberals (and millions of regular people) have been saying for years: You don’t have to think the intolerant, illiberal left is as big a problem as the far right to think it’s a problem worth recognizing. You can dislike two political movements at the same time.

It seems you can’t. But my outlook is far more common than people like you want to recognize - I’d wager it’s actually the norm IRL. It’s only rare on forums like this because by its nature social media is polarizing.

Sure, it's a problem worth recognizing, on it's own. But every time something reprehensible comes up on the right, you have a "but what about" to toss in the conversation. I'm not sure you have ever even acknowledged even one awful thing that comes up on the right, or the horrors committed by the church, or how someone like Ezra Levant is far more dangerous to the fabric of society than those seeking to have him stop deceiving the public in the name of "news".

But hey, if you are fine with people yelling obscenities like a crazed baboon at our respected politicians, or running vehicles through the gate of our PM's home, or illegally armed militant rebels ready to shoot our RCMP at the border, well, hey, that's a personal choice you get to live with. Because they are all a direct result of the misinformation people like Ezra and Smith speak to. All I'm saying is you don't have to toss a "what about" to every despicable action that happens from the right. It's not helpful, at all. And you are potentially confusing those who read your posts into thinking "oh ya, both sides," when you should be smart enough to know there is no equivalence to be found.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’m only saying the same thing dozens of prominent liberals (and millions of regular people) have been saying for years: You don’t have to think the intolerant, illiberal left is as big a problem as the far right to think it’s a problem worth recognizing. You can dislike two threats to liberal principles at the same time.

Which is the greater threat at the present time, the far-right or the far-left?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Which is the greater threat at the present time, the far-right or the far-left?

The left, obviously. I mean, look at one of Cliff's examples; a tenured professor (who has a job for life) wrote a rambling opinion piece where he brought out the "both sides, many sides" argument while talking about slavery, and after there was push back from other historians, he felt like he had to write an author's note saying that his article didn't convey what he intended. That's far worse than the right trying to dismantle democratic institutions and push back the rights of large swathes of the population several decades.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by dammage79

They won't do the work or openly admit it, but this ideology has been deeply rooted in the prairies since I was a child (early 80s.) And that's just from memory and likely has been in the grassroots much longer than that.

I thinks it's extremely disingenuous to say Trumpy American politics have rubbed off up here when it's been here the whole time. Only thing that has changed is that SM have given them a platform to grow and group up. And Trump has gleefully led the charge.

And I for one belive that if a serious and organized movement does happen, it's going to happen here first. The sheer rage coming from people I love is ..... frightening.

So why are some of these people so angry?

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

So why are some of these people so angry?

How the hell should I know. They just are. I can't make sense of it. But the long laundry list includes a return to slavery under the elites to the great reset to plain old "they took our jobs!" . Mixed that with some old fashioned racism and xenophobia, a deep seated (or seeded) hatred of all things upper canada, to plain old staunch old school conservatism .

All I know is, there is no room for conversation with the people I'm dearly close with and I don't know how they got there other than just being and living for a long time in an environment where you learn nothing else but back assward ideology. And that's all you know.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by dammage79

How the hell should I know. They just are. I can't make sense of it. But the long laundry list includes a return to slavery under the elites to the great reset to plain old "they took our jobs!" . Mixed that with some old fashioned racism and xenophobia, a deep seated (or seeded) hatred of all things upper canada, to plain old staunch old school conservatism .

All I know is, there is no room for conversation with the people I'm dearly close with and I don't know how they got there other than just being and living for a long time in an environment where you learn nothing else but back assward ideology. And that's all you know.

It is weird though, and I know what you’re talking about. It’s just strange that life in Alberta is pretty good, one of the best places / lifestyles on Earth and yet there’s so much depression, anger and general problems.

But maybe that’s how it always was and always will be.

[surferguy]

I just returned home from a two week trip to Nova Scotia and I can’t tell you how refreshing it was not to see a single politically motivated truck the entire time. I’m sure they are there but man it was just awesome to not have to look at a giant flag on a hockey stick or a giant #### Trudeau sticker every few blocks.

I like to think we have it pretty good in Alberta, like damn good but these people just seem to be so angry at ????? . I can’t reconcile it, I don’t understand why they feel so oppressed. What is it?