Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault

[Lonestar]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

PA won't allow for unilateral terminations of contracts.

What? Yes, team can terminate based off contract articles (though I'm not a lawyer). From my understanding the player can appeal, however do you think the player's association or any mediator would stand with Dube on this one??

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Again not sure why this is something people can't understand.
He could have been in mental crisis and under active care while still being one of the players charged.
Both can be true.

Ultimately mental health problems can be brought on by actions that people took that they have a lot of regret about. This is a situation that occurred 5 years ago and is coming to the forefront now with players being named.


I would be surprised if the challenges and struggles Dube is dealing with right now are not directly related to this incident. Doing a horrible thing can cause mental health issues, and doing a horrible thing, getting caught, and losing your livelihood that so few get to enjoy would be devastating to deal with mentally.

Mental Health, asking for help, being vulnerable, are all still somewhat new things in our society (especially for men) that it is hard not to see this as a bad look on the player and organization to use this as a reason to step away when it happened in and around the same time the other 4 were told to surrender to police and we now know Dube is one of those players.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Again not sure why this is something people can't understand.
He could have been in mental crisis and under active care while still being one of the players charged.
Both can be true.

People understand. Both can be true.

But are you phrasing it this way to cover the potential that he EITHER has a mental crisis not associated with the case OR a mental crisis associated with the case?

We all probably agree that if he by coincidence sought health at this moment for a mental crisis NOT associated with the charges, then that is fair and reasonable.

But, if he sought help because of the charges being brought? A lot of people on here are not sympathetic to that. I think it could reduce the chances someone uses these support mechanisms in the future because they don't want to be associated with a system that was used like this by Dube.

Doesn't mean we don't "understand".

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I would assume the Flames knew when they released the statement saying "Mental Health". If I had heard rumors that Hart and Dube were involved on Friday afternoon, then I'm sure the Flames knew. I'm not that connected to the team.

Just a ridiculous approach from the team that also impacts other players. How do Kylington and Andersson feel right now having answered questions about Dube and his mental health and saying that they hope he gets the help he needs, etc.

Just ridiculous from the Flames organization to think that was the right decision.

They can still feel for the victim, respect that he serves punishment for his actions and deals with the lifetime of consequences and he gets the help he needs. Or you prefer death penalties and no chance of rehabilitation?

Imagine you found out a friend of yours was being charged for a crime. Do you immediately banish them from your life and thoughts forever and hope they live alone in torture until the end of their days? Or can you have multiple thoughts and considerations of all sides of the situation?

[#-3]

It could also be that both sides informed by the recent Kylington situation, Dube approached and said "I need a leave for personal/mental reasons" possibly still under the delusion that he could try to deal with this privately.

Then the Flames knowing eventually this was coming but not knowing when, might have thought the whole investigation was weighing on him mentally, feeling it would be difficult to treat their employees differently accepted his leave with that explanation not prying further, drafted a statement saying, Dillon Dube has requested a Mental health leave, ran it by his agent got it rubber stamped, released it, and learnt latter that night when others started leaving too that the shoe they knew was coming was in fact dropping, and now given all of the legal issues involved just prefer not to comment until at least the charges come out and they can release him from his contract.

I think it's always dangerous to assume people knew 10 days ago what you know now when applying intent to their actions.

[Lonestar]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Hey, that's why I used the word "expedient". I agree. And I reeeeaaally want to know when the Flames knew about this. It feels so unbelievably icky that they might have tried to use Kylington's return from mental health struggles to sanitize Dube's leave of absence. Has me reconsidering why I support the team, honestly.

10-4, wasn't an attack on yourself, more questioning the organization and their knowledge ahead of this news.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by #-3

I think it's always dangerous to assume people knew 10 days ago what you know now when applying intent to their actions.

Yeah, fair. For all we know Dube's lawyers probably told him what to disclose and not to the team.

[bdubbs]

Terminate his contract.

[dammage79]

I'm not blaming the Flames for this. No one else should either. Even if they knew, the Flames have always used a soft hand dealing with situations like this. We applauded the Flames way in the Peter's case.

They can now wash their hands of Dube and move on.

Now those players will have their trial.

[dustygoon]

Can the league just terminate Dube's contract right now?

[OILFAN #81]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

People understand. Both can be true.

But are you phrasing it this way to cover the potential that he EITHER has a mental crisis not associated with the case OR a mental crisis associated with the case?

We all probably agree that if he by coincidence sought health at this moment for a mental crisis NOT associated with the charges, then that is fair and reasonable.

But, if he sought help because of the charges being brought? A lot of people on here are not sympathetic to that. I think it could reduce the chances someone uses these support mechanisms in the future because they don't want to be associated with a system that was used like this by Dube.

Doesn't mean we don't "understand".

Perfectly said.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Why would they have to word it that way though?

They didn't word it that way when Kylington was on a mental health leave.

None of the other teams had to word it that way.

I doubt there is anything that forced them to word it that way, it's a choice they made.

Likely Kylington had a say in how his release was worded.

It may have been stupid for sure. But I'm amazed with how certain you are of how this played out.

[driveway]

The more I think about it, the more I feel like the only way the Flames handled this correctly is if Dube, on his own, walked into the office and said "I need time away for mental health reasons."

If an employee of an organization makes a statement like that, the organization absolutely should proceed in the way the Flames did. It would be inappropriate of the Flames to second-guess such a statement.

If Dube is struggling with mental health as the result of a guilty conscience, then he absolutely deserves that consequence, should never receive sympathy, and should only receive support in the context of incarcerated rehabilitation.

[Ped]

I don't like how the Flames handled it; but no one else comes out here looking good. The Sens may not have signed Formenton, but all reports are, they tried to, and then tried to trade his rights. The Flyers allegedly tried to trade Hart last summer, knowing this was coming. And the Devils signed Foote as an UFA and re-signed McLeod last summer.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Likely Kylington had a say in how his release was worded.

It may have been stupid for sure. But I'm amazed with how certain you are of how this played out.

Well if this is the case and the Flames just rubber stamped the request, they should be able to just as easily retract that now and say that was wrong and the leave is being corrected.

[Ashasx]

The more I think about this, the more I hate it.

Dube had six years to feel bad or guilty about his involvement in this incident. It wasn't until he was about to be arrested for it that apparently his mental health was affected.

Just absolutely disgusting.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Kylington and his representatives would have similarly had a say in how it was worded.

I'm always amazed at how people can judge such a complicated situation with such certainty while knowing so little about what actually happened.

I don’t think it even has to be complicated. It could be as simple as Kylington’s agent asked for leave of absence to be cited, Dube’s agent asked for mental health to be cited, and in both cases the Flames did as they were asked because that’s the default and legally safest way to handle those sorts of requests.

[Lonestar]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Hey, that's why I used the word "expedient". I agree. And I reeeeaaally want to know when the Flames knew about this. It feels so unbelievably icky that they might have tried to use Kylington's return from mental health struggles to sanitize Dube's leave of absence. Has me reconsidering why I support the team, honestly.

To be direct, it was the "quietly expire" portion that bugged me. Expedient would be Conny coming out today with a presser notifying the hockey world of their knowledge of the situation and intent to terminate the contract.

I do agree with the rest of what you said.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Likely Kylington had a say in how his release was worded.

It may have been stupid for sure. But I'm amazed with how certain you are of how this played out.

What I'm saying is if I'm the Flames I wouldn't care how Dube or his representation wanted it worded, Dube and his agent can't force the Flames to issue that it's about mental health in the release.

All you say is "Dube requested and was granted an indefinite leave of absence for personal reasons. The club will have no further comment at this time."

There is no way they were forced to include mental health. It's a choice they made.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dieHARDflameZ

I can see why having a guilty conscience would affect Dube’s mental health. With that said, it seems like that excuse is all too convenient given he’s been fine until he knew he was about to get caught. Those are my assumptions anyways.

I mentioned this before but that's not unusual.
People are really good at hiding things or not dealing with them. They sit their in the back of your mind, but you can put it aside.
Until it hits.
When the cards crumble around you, and the consequences of your actions catch up with you, and the realities of what that could mean for your life and family - that's when mental crisis often hits. Often that's when people turn to suicide.

I like this quote from a Stephen King book that speaks to this:

“So do we pass the ghosts that haunt us later in our lives; they sit undramatically by the roadside like poor beggars, and we see them only from the corners of our eyes, if we see them at all. The idea that they have been waiting there for us rarely if ever crosses our minds. Yet they do wait, and when we have passed, they gather up their bundles of memory and fall in behind, treading in our footsteps and catching up, little by little.”"

When they catch up. It all falls apart.