2007 NFL Regular Season

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

So are you saying for example that 2005 Brady was garbage compared to this years Tom Brady? Because to me thats how you're making it sound, and it comes accross as being Mudcrutch79. In 2005 he had very little to work with and an injury depleted team. As a result he only put up really good numbers. Fast forward to now he's got pro bowl play makers and a solid line and they're relatively healthy and his numbers are off the chart. Did Brady suddenly figure out how to play football so much better this year that he's on pace to shatter every record ever at the position for a single season?

Was just about to post the same thing. Thanks Syl.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Lurch

What if McNabb or Culpepper have good years next year - was none of it them and its all on a bad team around them? Good story for an agent to sell I guess.

Huh? How is McNabb having a bad year? The guy is on pace to have over 4000 yards passing for the first time in his career, and on pace to have 23 TDs. His current passer rating is 91.7, good for 8th in the league. The Eagles have not been very good this year but McNabb has not been the problem.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

First of all, their defense is vastly improved and there are stats that show that without looking at the roster. AJ Hawk has quickly turned into one of the best LB's in the game.
Agree with the fact that they are better

Greg Jennings is a fabulous young wide receiver. The addition of Donald Lee has been huge.
Nobody talked about Jennings and Lee at the beginning of the year as a reason why they will be much better ... I think Favre is making them look better than they are. He had worse years with Driver and whatshis name that went to Denver.

I don't even follow the Packers that closely and that much I can rattle off of the top of my head.

I didn't insinuate he couldn't learn anything. That's a leap of epic proportions from what I actually did say

Maybe, but that's the sense I get when all I'm saying is he learned something going into this year and you find it so hard to believe note post 1008 you said I think a miraculous recover has taken place ... when in fact all Im' saying is he's imporved his decision making. You are the one equating my point of improved decision making to 'miraculous' . And to be fair you have a very healthy share of 'epic leaps' in the last two pages. The way you argue is to make epic leaps then throw your hands up in the air when someone else makes what you think is an epic leap. It's a little disengenous. If you want to argue about Favre ability to improve or simply the team around him is better fine, but enough with the epic leap thing, especially when you are leading the league at it.

..

[Displaced Flames fan]

Don't forget I'm arguing with two people here...so the epic leaps you speak of may not have been replies to you.

You'd never heard of Greg Jennings before this year? Lots of talk surrounding him since his draft day really.

Can you please point out my epic leaps? I can't even imagine what you are talking about. And let's not forget, the epic leaps I pointed out were interpretations...no....extrapolations of my own words, not any argument that was made by you or Lurch.

[Flames in 07]

I had heard of Jennings but not in the context of being able to help make his team much better this year, or get the kind of stats he's getting.

I drafted him in one of my FFL's because I thought he was underrated, but even I didn't think he'd be this good. Again, I think a new and improved Favre is helping him with some of his stats.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I had heard of Jennings but not in the context of being able to help make his team much better this year, or get the kind of stats he's getting.

I drafted him in one of my FFL's because I thought he was underrated, but even I didn't think he'd be this good. Again, I think a new and improved Favre is helping him with some of his stats.

And I'd argue that Jennings has given Favre another option which has improved Favre's play overall.

He was one of the steals of his draft class and that was pointed out on the ESPN coverage. I know I had him on my short list for the Broncos.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

And I'd argue that Jennings has given Favre another option which has improved Favre's play overall.

He was one of the steals of his draft class and that was pointed out on the ESPN coverage. I know I had him on my short list for the Broncos.

Too bad Denver didn't.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Lurch

^^
Unfortunately, you cannot have a logical argument about certain players - those people love and those people hate. By any reasonable measure, Favre has been great this year. By those same reasonable measures, he stunk the last several years. Anyone who says his stats are great now but wants to ignore those same stats from previous years has already made up their mind about something and it is pointless to discuss the issue.

Unfortunately some people are unable to grasp the fact that football is moreso a TEAM sport than any other.

The argument from the masses before this season and last was that Favre was no onger physically or mentally able to play in the NFL. That simply wasn't the truth and the counter-argument all along was that the TEAM he had to work with was not a very good one.

After the 2004 season (which the Pack made the playoffs BTW) they lost 3 out of their 5 O-line starters. 2 of which were pro-bowlers. He also lost his best receiver in Javon Walker to injury and then to FA (then lost his top 3 WR at one time in 05). Those positions were then filled by rookies and mostly undrafted players whom were not ready for prime time but by circumstance were forced to start.

Brett Favre never lost his ability to do what he is doing....which should be obvious to everyone by now, instead he lost the pieces on offense to do it with. Yes he was forcing balls for a couple years...not just because of bad decision making but because he had no choice in most instances. Trust me when I say how much I am aware that he is still a ginslinger and takes chances he likely shouldn't, but that does not explain the numbers from last year and the previous all together.

Miraculously, once guys started getting healthy last yar and played together...they started winning. Its pretty simple stuff.

well like I said earlier, the name on the back of the jersey will skew peoples view of a particular play ... or in this case dozens of plays manufactured by Favre in 04 - 06.

Nothing skewed here...but nice try. He tried to do what he could with what he had...and it showed.

Until now, you and Tranny would fight any comment that suggested Favre has a fault.

Absoluetly untrue and made up. No one EVER said that. I and others said he was not ready for the scrap heap and we gave reasons as to why...no more and no less. Now that we are being proven right 100%, you are resorting to this stuff?

Hilarious.

Nobody talked about Jennings and Lee at the beginning of the year as a reason why they will be much better ... I think Favre is making them look better than they are. He had worse years with Driver and whatshis name that went to Denver.

I did...now I didnt think they would be THIS much better at least not this quickly. Anyone who watched them play the last 4 games last year could see things were going in the right direction on both the O-Line and with a healthy set of receivers. It was the first time in 2 years that Favre was getting protection and having fun again.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Tranny, do you remember me congratulating you on that pick in this very forum that draft day? I guess I could find it if I searched.

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

So are you saying for example that 2005 Brady was garbage compared to this years Tom Brady? Because to me thats how you're making it sound, and it comes accross as being Mudcrutch79. In 2005 he had very little to work with and an injury depleted team. As a result he only put up really good numbers. Fast forward to now he's got pro bowl play makers and a solid line and they're relatively healthy and his numbers are off the chart. Did Brady suddenly figure out how to play football so much better this year that he's on pace to shatter every record ever at the position for a single season?

Good point, but I'd argue yes, Brady has improved. The degree which causes which is not clear, but I'm not the one suggesting Favre was an All Pro last year but for his team (which is the exact counterfactual to your point above and sounds equally Mudcrutch) - the logical implication of what DFF suggests is that Favre was about the 4th best QB in the league last year if he had the same team he has this year. I think players can improve/decline from year to year, and Favre (and Brady) have improved.

[transplant99]

Again, I think a new and improved Favre is helping him with some of his stats.

Yikes...how has a 38 year old Favre become new and improved?

Maybe, and just think about this...its his TEAM that is new and improved?

Doesn't that make so much more sense?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Tranny, do you remember me congratulating you on that pick in this very forum that draft day? I guess I could find it if I searched.

Absoluetly I do...if for no other reason than I hadn't really paid much attention to him and i was so worried that they hadn't addressed the O line and secondary issues I thought needed to be done long before any "skill" positions.

You were right...after a bit of an injury filled rookie season, he has been nothing short of a beauty and he is only getting better.

His confidence has skyrocketed. Awesome everydown WR.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Too bad Denver didn't.

Well, Denver didn't have a pick to take him with.

Their second rounder, several picks later, was Jennings' WMU teammate Tony Scheffler. That has turned out to be a stellar choice as well.

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yikes...how has a 38 year old Favre become new and improved?

Maybe, and just think about this...its his TEAM that is new and improved?

Doesn't that make so much more sense?

Now maybe this is just semantics, but I think if you put Favre in an identical situation this year versus two years ago (open receiver, good protection, 7 point lead in the 4th etc) on ONE GIVEN PLAY, this year he is much more likely to make the play. His head space is better, he's not forcing bad throws under a huge range of situations, etc. I would say this is improvement - possibly due to him have a better mental attitude on a better team, but an improvement nonetheless. If Favre made identical throws under identical situations to those of two years ago, I firmly believe he would not be having the season he is having this year, ie. improvement.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Lurch

Now maybe this is just semantics, but I think if you put Favre in an identical situation this year versus two years ago (open receiver, good protection, 7 point lead in the 4th etc) on ONE GIVEN PLAY, this year he is much more likely to make the play. His head space is better, he's not forcing bad throws under a huge range of situations, etc. I would say this is improvement - possibly due to him have a better mental attitude on a better team, but an improvement nonetheless. If Favre made identical throws under identical situations to those of two years ago, I firmly believe he would not be having the season he is having this year, ie. improvement.

But Lurch, all of those things you point to (head space, forcing bad throws, mental attitude) could all be attributed to the difference in personnel around him. When guys aren't open you have to force throws. When your defence can't stop anyone, you are forced to throw the ball.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yikes...how has a 38 year old Favre become new and improved?

Maybe, and just think about this...its his TEAM that is new and improved?

Doesn't that make so much more sense?

maybe both are true? Maybe football is a complicated sport, where cause and effect aren't as simple as something you can put in one line?

If he is a professional, his age is irrelvant, he should always be finding ways to make himself better. And maybe he came to the (obvious) conclusion that he had to take better care of the ball. And that he had evolved into a gunslinger that threw first and thought second.

Maybe reems of video were created and reviewed by Brett and he agreed that he was careless with the ball.

Anyway the team and QB are playing well, I don't get what all the drama is about.

I think he is an improved qb this year ... so what? If you don't agree and you think he's carbon copy of last year's favre, just with a significantly improved roster then fine. But it's about a team and a group of players that none of us know anything about, so nobody really knows the exact answer.

[transplant99]

Anyhow, andjust to show my vision isn't "skewed"...I fully expect the Packers to win this weekend against the Panthers but thn proceed to lose to both Detroit and Dallas in consecutive weeks. Which, IMO, isnt necessarily a bad thing but instead something to use as a teaching tool and keep the guys focussed on doing what they do.

The running game looks to be coming around and the receiving core is now among the best in the top 5 or 6 in the league IMO, but the tackling in the secondary is still sub-par and some of the coaching decisions are questionable at best. Im still not sold that Al Harris is good enough to go one on one with guys like Owens and Creighton on Dallas or Williams and company in Detroit. Atari Bigby might be one of the worst starting strong safeties in football which could bea huge concern going forward.

I would have GB as the 2nd best club in the NFC and maybe 5th in the NFL right now. Things change though.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Well, Denver didn't have a pick to take him with.

Their second rounder, several picks later, was Jennings' WMU teammate Tony Scheffler. That has turned out to be a stellar choice as well.

I know, but if they liked him they could have traded up for him ... anyway, no big deal.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I know, but if they liked him they could have traded up for him ... anyway, no big deal.

Yeah, I don't know that they did like him. I know I did. Didn't mean to insinuate the Broncos had him on their radar and not sure you thought that anyway! Just to be clear and all.

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

But Lurch, all of those things you point to (head space, forcing bad throws, mental attitude) could all be attributed to the difference in personnel around him. When guys aren't open you have to force throws. When your defence can't stop anyone, you are forced to throw the ball.

You miss my point. Take identical circumstances for 1 given play. Driver is open over the middle, and another guy is covered deep. The team is up 7 with 5 minutes to go. Protection is good on the play. Two years ago Favre underthrows the deep man and is picked off. This year, he looks that off and hits the open man more often than not, IMO.

You suggest this is attributable to the team, but I think it's undeniable Favre is playing better as well. If Favre was not playing better, he'd just be making a poor throw to a better player, not changing his decision. If you want to attribute that entirely to the team, you can. I personally think Favre is making different plays this year even under identical situations - not to dispute the fact that he is also in better circumstances generally but that is not the whole story, IMO.

Edit to add: Here is the issue. If a traded player makes a big jump on a better team (Huselius) does the team get credit for 100% of the improvement, or does the player get credit for changing his game under different circumstances.