2007 NFL Regular Season

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

???

That arguement doesn't make sense.

Favre throwing into 2x coverage and earning a INT is ok, but Joey Harrington doing the same thing is not ok ... because Favre's team is better?

If so, his teams sucked for 4 years or so until this year, and Favre was at or near the top of the list for pics and throwing games away ... so then by this logic, his team was bad, so it wasn't ok ...

Sorry, wasn't clear.

Favre's better with the ball this year because his team is better this year.

I'm not sure how Harrington even gets in the argument to be honest.

[Sylvanfan]

Well outside of last season I think Joey Harrington's best season as a starter was going 6-10. Brett Farve and the Packers went 8-8 last year. Before that 2005 was the first time in 13 years they'd had a losing season with their 8-8 record in 1999 being their worst year in between 1992 and 2004. Had Joey Harrington had one winning season in that span...maybe people would gve him some credit.

Vince Young doens't really put up good numbers...but his teams win games. Sort of helps him get a more favorable view too. At the end of the day QB's get judged on wins and losses as much as they do on their stats.

[Lurch]

^^
Unfortunately, you cannot have a logical argument about certain players - those people love and those people hate. By any reasonable measure, Favre has been great this year. By those same reasonable measures, he stunk the last several years. Anyone who says his stats are great now but wants to ignore those same stats from previous years has already made up their mind about something and it is pointless to discuss the issue.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Lurch

^^
Unfortunately, you cannot have a logical argument about certain players - those people love and those people hate. By any reasonable measure, Favre has been great this year. By those same reasonable measures, he stunk the last several years. Anyone who says his stats are great now but wants to ignore those same stats from previous years has already made up their mind about something and it is pointless to discuss the issue.

That's hilarious.

His numbers sure did stink last year, no arguments from me and I'll bet you won't get one from Tranny either.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Sorry, wasn't clear.

Favre's better with the ball this year because his team is better this year.

I'm not sure how Harrington even gets in the argument to be honest.

well like I said earlier, the name on the back of the jersey will skew peoples view of a particular play ... or in this case dozens of plays manufactured by Favre in 04 - 06.

Lots of QB's have short careers because they too were trying to 'make plays'.

What is a dumb play by one QB (Harrington), was just a gutsy guy trying to make a play (Favre).

I don't know why you say people who were slamming him, or tranny, have changed their arguement. I don't recall one that has, I none of them said so with as much volume as me, and I haven't.

Favre overall has had a great career, he's a compeditor. Who doesn't like it when he's headbutting warren sapp in the backfield? He's a leader (unless you are back up QB I guess) and he works through adversity. However the quality of play on the field has shifted around, he was great, he was bad, then he is great again.

Sorry that I, and a couple others, don't think he is absolutely flawless.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

That's hilarious.

His numbers sure did stink last year, no arguments from me and I'll bet you won't get one from Tranny either.

I gotta admit, I'm totally confused, what exactly are we debating then. This sounds like me. He was good, then bad, then good.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Unreal.

Nobody is absolutely flawless.

I give up. If you guys can't see the correlation between improved team and improved play by Favre, I can't help you.

I guess that Favre gets the pass and Harrington gets labeled because Favre has actually made plays when there were none to be made in the past. Harrington probably hasn't....and that might not be his fault.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I gotta admit, I'm totally confused, what exactly are we debating then. This sounds like me. He was good, then bad, then good.

You are correct...you are totally confused.

My argument is that Favre is better largely because his team is better. He was bad previously largely because he had a bad supporting cast.

You guys are arguing, I guess, that some miraculous recovery in decision making ability has made Favre better this year.

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Unreal.

Nobody is absolutely flawless.

I give up. If you guys can't see the correlation between improved team and improved play by Favre, I can't help you.

I guess that Favre gets the pass and Harrington gets labeled because Favre has actually made plays when there were none to be made in the past. Harrington probably hasn't....and that might not be his fault.

If you can't see that it could just as easily be improved play by Favre that is making the team look good, then I guess we are in the same boat.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Unreal.

Nobody is absolutely flawless.

I give up. If you guys can't see the correlation between improved team and improved play by Favre, I can't help you.

I guess that Favre gets the pass and Harrington gets labeled because Favre has actually made plays when there were none to be made in the past. Harrington probably hasn't....and that might not be his fault.

well if Harrington had Sterling Sharpe for awile he might get better credibility.

Until now, you and Tranny would fight any comment that suggested Favre has a fault. And that people are hiding now that he's playing well. That's where the flawless comment comes from.

I think we are saying similar things here. Players performance is very much a function of hte players around them. Terrell Davis would not have a couple rings if he didn't have the scheme and small/fast line that allowed him to use his vision, Emmitt Smith should have about half a dozen lineman with him to help him receive any accolade for most rushing yards and in a different situation a QB like Joey Harrington might be a top tier QB if he had Sterling Sharpe to rely on early in his career.

My only point has always been Favre spend many years making god awful decisions ... and now he's not.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Lurch

If you can't see that it could just as easily be improved play by Favre that is making the team look good, then I guess we are in the same boat.

Are you kidding me?

Take a look at the roster this year compared to two seasons ago and try to tell me one of our arguments doesn't make more sense than the other.

Wow.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

You are correct...you are totally confused.

My argument is that Favre is better largely because his team is better. He was bad previously largely because he had a bad supporting cast.

You guys are arguing, I guess, that some miraculous recovery in decision making ability has made Favre better this year.

ok.

well I'd argue both are true.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

well if Harrington had Sterling Sharpe for awile he might get better credibility.

Until now, you and Tranny would fight any comment that suggested Favre has a fault. And that people are hiding now that he's playing well. That's where the flawless comment comes from.

I think we are saying similar things here. Players performance is very much a function of hte players around them. Terrell Davis would not have a couple rings if he didn't have the scheme and small/fast line that allowed him to use his vision, Emmitt Smith should have about half a dozen lineman with him to help him receive any accolade for most rushing yards and in a different situation a QB like Joey Harrington might be a top tier QB if he had Sterling Sharpe to rely on early in his career.

My only point has always been Favre spend many years making god awful decisions ... and now he's not.

So why isn't he making god awful decisions? Because he miraculously relearned the Qb decision making process or because he has a better team around him?

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

So why isn't he making god awful decisions? Because he miraculously relearned the Qb decision making process or because he has a better team around him?

well he doesn't exactly have stud WR's, he does have Driver but he's always had him. And despite what others believe from what I've seen that Oline is about average. What part of that roster do you think has miraculously improved in the last few months?

I can't tell you why he's not making bad decisions. I don't know Brett, I don't spend the summers in MS rappin with Brett ... who the hell knows.

But even old Brett can learn a thing or two, maybe Lindy Infante called him up in July and said Bud, I'm not gonna lie, if you are to put another year in, you have to be more patient with the ball ... who knows why, he's just better. In order to make the arguement valid I have to tell you the exact reason why?

You don't give him much credit if you are insinuating that he can't learn anything.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I guess that Favre gets the pass and Harrington gets labeled because Favre has actually made plays when there were none to be made in the past. Harrington probably hasn't....and that might not be his fault.

Exactly. Guys like Favre, Manning, Brady and McNabb are all guys who go that extra distance to make a play when there appears to be nothing there. They elevate their team's play. Football is the ultimate team sport. If a quarterback doesn't have the right supporting cast, he is not going to be successful.

Someone brought up the fact that Tony Romo has made a very average offensive line in Dallas look superb. Jeff Garcia seems to be doing same thing in Tampa Bay. That's the bonus of having a mobile quarterback.

Everyone is back on the T.O. bandwagon after he struggled last year and I'd have to say that nobody is more responsible for this than Tony Romo. T.O. is not a really fast guy, but he's great once he catches the ball and those types of guys flourish with a mobile quarterback. If you look at T.O.'s career he's always had mobile guys getting him the ball (Romo, Garcia, McNabb, Young). The one year he struggled was last year when he had a pure pocket passer in Bledsoe throwing him the ball.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

well he doesn't exactly have stud WR's, he does have Driver but he's always had him. And despite what others believe from what I've seen that Oline is about average. What part of that roster do you think has miraculously improved in the last few months?

I can't tell you why he's not making bad decisions. I don't know Brett, I don't spend the summers in MS rappin with Brett ... who the hell knows.

But even old Brett can learn a thing or two, maybe Lindy Infante called him up in July and said Bud, I'm not gonna lie, if you are to put another year in, you have to be more patient with the ball ... who knows why, he's just better. In order to make the arguement valid I have to tell you the exact reason why?

I don't give him much credit if you are insinuating that he can't learn anything.

First of all, their defense is vastly improved and there are stats that show that without looking at the roster. AJ Hawk has quickly turned into one of the best LB's in the game.

Greg Jennings is a fabulous young wide receiver. The addition of Donald Lee has been huge.

I don't even follow the Packers that closely and that much I can rattle off of the top of my head.

I didn't insinuate he couldn't learn anything. That's a leap of epic proportions from what I actually did say

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

You are correct...you are totally confused.

My argument is that Favre is better largely because his team is better. He was bad previously largely because he had a bad supporting cast.

You guys are arguing, I guess, that some miraculous recovery in decision making ability has made Favre better this year.

So let me get this straight. Players improve or decline only in smooth, predictable ways? If someone has an unexpectedly good year, he was actually good all along, his team just sucked around him? Kind of sucks for personal accountability. What if McNabb or Culpepper have good years next year - was none of it them and its all on a bad team around them? Good story for an agent to sell I guess.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

well he doesn't exactly have stud WR's, he does have Driver but he's always had him. And despite what others believe from what I've seen that Oline is about average. What part of that roster do you think has miraculously improved in the last few months?

I never said they were great. Just said that the line is hugely improved from what it was. IMO confidence is everything at that position. If a QB feels like he's going to have three guys in his face when he makes his 3 step drop back chances are he'll make worse throws. But if he feels he has time to make a read or two, he'll likely play better. Right now he's playing with more confidence in his line and making better reads and throws.

Farve moreso than other QB's likely battles self confidence issues given his history. Not so much with his physical abilities but with himself psychologically. Lets face it, he's not like Brady who appears to be unflappable. He's a bit more emotional, and subject to higher highs, and lower lows.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Lurch

So let me get this straight. Players improve or decline only in smooth, predictable ways? If someone has an unexpectedly good year, he was actually good all along, his team just sucked around him? Kind of sucks for personal accountability. What if McNabb or Culpepper have good years next year - was none of it them and its all on a bad team around them? Good story for an agent to sell I guess.

Again, a leap of epic proportions from what I actually said.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Lurch

So let me get this straight. Players improve or decline only in smooth, predictable ways? If someone has an unexpectedly good year, he was actually good all along, his team just sucked around him? Kind of sucks for personal accountability. What if McNabb or Culpepper have good years next year - was none of it them and its all on a bad team around them? Good story for an agent to sell I guess.

So are you saying for example that 2005 Brady was garbage compared to this years Tom Brady? Because to me thats how you're making it sound, and it comes accross as being Mudcrutch79. In 2005 he had very little to work with and an injury depleted team. As a result he only put up really good numbers. Fast forward to now he's got pro bowl play makers and a solid line and they're relatively healthy and his numbers are off the chart. Did Brady suddenly figure out how to play football so much better this year that he's on pace to shatter every record ever at the position for a single season?