Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by T@T

So according to you it's OK to fire 2000 rockets at another country and not expect to get bombed backed? Should Israel just allow this to happen and not fight back because a terrorist group are using people as human shields?

I can't believe how dense people are, Hamas wants civilians killed, they want the whole world to hate Israel, they want Israel to be blown off the map. Hamas leaders don't even have the balls to go anywhere near Gaza, they throw out their suicide orders from other countries like Qatar and Dubai living like kings.

Hamas and all terrorist organizations are the ones who need to seize to exist. Palestinian's will continue to die as long as they support these type of groups. The whole world would help the Palestinian cause if they got rid of terrorism.

I've said it before and I'll say it again until I'm blue in the face.

Hamas has no power to destroy Israel.

Israel does however have the power to destroy Palestine and has shown time and time again that it is their ultimate goal. Hamas is just a symptom to this problem. I don't think anyone on the pro Palestine side (especially here on CP) is pro Hamas by the way.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Straight and honest question for you:

I agree that launching rockets at another people is a form of terrorism. Do you think indiscriminately bulldozing a home is terrorism?

A "form" of terrorism? Good try at softening the act.

It is terrorism. No if and buts. They are launching rockets with the sole purpose of killing as many civilians that they can... both Jews and Muslims. At least the Israeli bombs are targeted at military targets.. the rocket launch sites.

As to the bulldozing of houses... a house is just a house. You can rebuild. Its an object. There is no comparison whatsoever between knocking down a house and suicide bomber (which is a terrorist act that Hamas supports). One is a punishment and the other is murder.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Ugh...I just think its unacceptable that Israelis and Palestinians allow their well being to be hijacked by extremists.

And by extremists I am referring to Jewish settlers ignoring rules, Palestinian radicals and the Evangelical American Christians who are a major actor in this drama.

Marginalize these groups (none of them want peace) and you might be able to get to environment where Children in this region are safe

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Rerun

A "form" of terrorism? Good try at softening the act.

It is terrorism. No if and buts. They are launching rockets with the sole purpose of killing as many civilians that they can... both Jews and Muslims. At least the Israeli bombs are targeted at military targets.. the rocket launch sites.

As to the bulldozing of houses... a house is just a house. You can rebuild. Its an object. There is no comparison whatsoever between knocking down a house and suicide bomber (which is a terrorist act that Hamas supports). One is a punishment and the other is murder.

Don't be obtuse. Launching rockets is a form of terrorism, as is bombing buses, sending poison through the mail, etc...

Terrorism has many forms. Using the word 'form' doesn't soften it, it describes it. English is your friend.

And I appreciate your answer regarding the house. The description and the language used are very informative.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

The media is no friend of Israel that's for sure.

Should media be anyone's friend? I believe the general goal of media is to be unbiased. I think the problem you run into is when criticism of Israel is seen as being anti-Israel. But how can you NOT be critical of Israel unless you have a pro-Israel bias? There is a progressively intimidating amount of human rights violations occurring, should everyone excuse Israel simply because they are fighting terrorists?

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I am not shy about being critical of the government of Israel nor the IDF when circumstances warrant.

To continue with my point above, circumstances very clearly call for criticism of Israel. The civilian death toll is unacceptable on every level. They have violated the rules of war multiple times, including the bombing of homes, hospitals, and densely civilian populated areas. They blame this on "human shields" but the IDF has itself been a proponent of using human shields, and would send Palestinian civilian teenagers to negotiate with militants. Civilian deaths here are not unavoidable, Israel simply chooses not to avoid them. According to some on the ground of the most recent hospital bombing, they were bombed while negotiating a time to leave. Warning aside, IDF knew the hospital was full of innocent civilians, and bombed it anyway. How many civilian lives are Hamas rockets worth? How many times do they have to get locations wrong, or fail to warn civilians, before their bombing is seen as inexcusable? We've already stopped excusing the actions of Hamas, when do we do the same for Israel?

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Hamas must be disarmed once and for all and renounce violence. There is no reason for these kinds of weapons to be stockpiled in Gaza.

The reason is Israel, and unfortunately, that is where a Catch 22 comes in. Hamas will not renounce violence until Israel ends occupation, and Israel will not end occupation until Hamas renounces violence. Many Palestinians would likely say that Israel must leave once and for all and give back the 67 borders. There are clear solutions available to both sides. Neither side appears interested.

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

As I said before all of this is on Hamas. What have they done over the last several years? Their "infrastructure projects" involved the construction of vast networks of underground tunnels in which to import weapons to attack Israeli citizens.

What have they done? They do a lot. They provide health care, dental, day care, soup kitchens... their funding of social welfare programs is a huge part of their budget.
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar...ld/fg-charity2

And the tunnels were not originally intended to attack Israel, nor has that been their sole purpose. They were used, not more than a year ago even, to bring in goods and supplies for the Palestinian people. Basic supplies like foods, clothing, and fuel that became unattainable because of the blockades.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-palestinians/

Neither of these points are meant as support for Hamas, but just so you have a better idea as to why Palestinians supported them. They do(did) a lot of good for their own people, and while the mood is changing, they gained power at least partially because of the way they helped people.

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

They demand an end to the blockade of Gaza not for humanitarian purposes but so they can freely import larger more sophisticated and destructive weapons from Iran in which to carry out their terrorist objectives.

As stated above, the end of the blockades are not simply desired for the transportation of weapons, but for actual supplies for the Palestinian people. Hamas are not an "all bad" organisation. Will they use open borders to import weapons? It's almost undeniable at this point in the conflict. But unfortunately the statement of "it's not for humanitarian purposes, it's to import weapons" is not true. At very least, they would do both. Hamas is desperate to maintain popularity, something that is waning due to their inability to currently provide for it's citizens.

As I've said before. Painting Hamas as this regime of pure evil, lacking any and all duty to it's people, does not paint the full picture and can lead to statements like this:

Originally Posted by T@T

Palestinian's will continue to die as long as they support these type of groups.

Statement which are, unfortunately, too simple for the situation, and ignore the very real plight of the Palestinian people and why it is they turn to organisations like this in the first place.

Palestinians may continue to die if they support organisations like Hamas. However, they rightly fear they will be unable to truly live. Eliminate that fear, and you eliminate the need for Hamas. Perhaps an impossible task.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Rerun

A "form" of terrorism? Good try at softening the act.

It is terrorism. No if and buts. They are launching rockets with the sole purpose of killing as many civilians that they can... both Jews and Muslims. At least the Israeli bombs are targeted at military targets.. the rocket launch sites.

As to the bulldozing of houses... a house is just a house. You can rebuild. Its an object. There is no comparison whatsoever between knocking down a house and suicide bomber (which is a terrorist act that Hamas supports). One is a punishment and the other is murder.

A house is just a house? Yeah, I bet it will be super easy for a Palestinian to rebuild. His only obstacle would be deciding to pull out the money from his Chequings account or hia savings account.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Rerun

A "form" of terrorism? Good try at softening the act.

It is terrorism. No if and buts. They are launching rockets with the sole purpose of killing as many civilians that they can... both Jews and Muslims. At least the Israeli bombs are targeted at military targets.. the rocket launch sites.

As to the bulldozing of houses... a house is just a house. You can rebuild. Its an object. There is no comparison whatsoever between knocking down a house and suicide bomber (which is a terrorist act that Hamas supports). One is a punishment and the other is murder.

But I think you're thinking of the home demolitions in your North American context and fail to see how devastating it is for those in the Palestinian territories. In the Middle East a home is usually passed on for generations, housing entire families at once usually. It's not just a building that can be rebuilt easily. Add on to that the complications of obtaining building permits from the Israeli authorities as well as the poverty a lot of these people live in and you can see how absolutely devastating this can be for a family.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I've said it before and I'll say it again until I'm blue in the face.

Hamas has no power to destroy Israel.

Israel does however have the power to destroy Palestine and has shown time and time again that it is their ultimate goal. Hamas is just a symptom to this problem. I don't think anyone on the pro Palestine side (especially here on CP) is pro Hamas by the way.

Your dense, Israel could flaten Gaza and the West Bank in a day if it wanted too, Israel has watched for over 50 years terrorist organizions such as Fatah, Baath, PLO, Hezbollah and now Hamas strike terror to israel but they never finish the job against them because of "world opinion" and western influence.

I hope this time they flaten the Hamas and send a real message against anyone else who might want to end their existence.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by T@T

Your dense, Israel could flaten Gaza and the West Bank in a day if it wanted too, Israel has watched for over 50 years terrorist organizions such as Fatah, Baath, PLO, Hezbollah and now Hamas strike terror to israel but they never finish the job against them because of "world opinion" and western influence.

I hope this time they flaten the Hamas and send a real message against anyone else who might want to end their existence.

There were no such organizations in the 50s. Go research the mass murder and exile of Palestinians that occurred before any of these organizations came to the scene and between wars.

[scottish_flame]

Originally Posted by T@T

Your dense, Israel could flaten Gaza and the West Bank in a day if it wanted too, Israel has watched for over 50 years terrorist organizions such as Fatah, Baath, PLO, Hezbollah and now Hamas strike terror to israel but they never finish the job against them because of "world opinion" and western influence.

I hope this time they flaten the Hamas and send a real message against anyone else who might want to end their existence.

Even if they finish off Hamas there will be a different brainwashed Islamist group who blames Israel and the west for everything.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by T@T

Palestinian's will continue to die as long as they support these type of groups. The whole world would help the Palestinian cause if they got rid of terrorism.

And there is it folks. The non-combatants being killed by Israeli bombs and mortar shells are to blame for their own deaths because 'they' support Hamas.

[Azure]

How are things going in the West Bank? Better? Worse?

An example of something better?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by _Q_

There were no such organizations in the 50s. Go research the mass murder and exile of Palestinians that occurred before any of these organizations came to the scene and between wars.

I said for over 50 years, not the 50's.(pay attention) But since your not much of an expert on timelimes you should know Yasser Arafat formed the Fatah for guerrilla warfare operations against Israel in 1959.

And I'm well aware of the "mass murder" leading up to the terrorist groups...are you?

Each and everytime these "mass murders" you speak of have occured it was because Palestinian infiltrators (fedayeen) murdered Israelis first.

1951, 118 Israelis killed, including 48 civilians
1952, 68 Israelis killed, including 42 civilians
1953, 71 Israelis killed, including 44 civilians
1954, 57 Israelis killed, including 33 civilians
1955, 74 Israelis killed, including 24 civilians
1956, 117 Israelis killed, including 54 civilians

1957 and 1958 were piecefull years, Israel ended the Suez conflict, no land was taken and all seemed great, but of course the jew haters couldn't take this, so everyones favorite egyptian decides to end peace with the formation of Fatah.

[Nage Waza]

Israel implemented a policy of bulldozing homes as a response to suicide murders. It appears to have worked, there is a dramatic decrease in suicide attacks. Parents now beg their kids to ignore the Hamas thugs, afraid of their homes being destroyed. Terrible it got to that. Israel would have preferred peace.

As for the claims of mass murder and exile against Palestinians, that is pure hate speech. How else do you explain Arabs living in Israel? We're there isolated battles? Of course, Israel was attacked. Several countries attacked Israel, what we see today is the result. Had there been peace on day one the Palestinians would have prospered with Israel as an ally. Too many mistakes by the Palestinians and their so called trusting neighbours, over and over.

I am unsure about settlements, as long as there is no peace and no one negotiating in good faith on the PA side, Israel continues narrowing Palestinian options. Why would Israel prolong this? They just cannot see the Arab world tolerating them, and the fact they don't negotiate proves it. They gave gaza to the PA and got rockets in return. Israel is just the front line, other countries are becoming nervous.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

So my question stands: Do readers of this board believe that indiscriminate bulldozing of homes is an act of terrorism?

Yes.

In the last few weeks, it has become pretty clear that Israel is killing civilians intentionally, and with some political goal in mind. There is a word for that.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Rerun

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/06/04...for-the-world/

https://www.facebook.com/mohammad.zoabi.58

I heard a similar story from an Israeli Arab that now lives in Canada.

I know these are all just anecdotal and aren't a statistical representation, but I know there are Arabs in Israel that want nothing to do with a Palestinian state.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

But I think you're thinking of the home demolitions in your North American context and fail to see how devastating it is for those in the Palestinian territories. In the Middle East a home is usually passed on for generations, housing entire families at once usually. It's not just a building that can be rebuilt easily. Add on to that the complications of obtaining building permits from the Israeli authorities as well as the poverty a lot of these people live in and you can see how absolutely devastating this can be for a family.

This is such garbage.

The Palestinians are one of the fastest growing populations in the world. They aren't passing down houses through generations. They are building homes on a vast scale.

You're trying to promote this narrative that the Palestinian town have been there for generations and that Israel is demolishing them to build modern homes over top of them.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The Palestinians like the Israelis have built up huge settlements in the past few decades. In areas of land where there was little to no buildings 60+ years ago.

In 1882 the Population of Gaza City was 16,000 and in 1945 it was just over 30,000. In 1982 it was 100,000. It's current population is over 500,000:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_City#Demographics

The vast majority of homes are going to be first generation.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by T@T

So according to you it's OK to fire 2000 rockets at another country and not expect to get bombed backed? Should Israel just allow this to happen and not fight back because a terrorist group are using people as human shields?

I can't believe how dense people are, Hamas wants civilians killed, they want the whole world to hate Israel, they want Israel to be blown off the map. Hamas leaders don't even have the balls to go anywhere near Gaza, they throw out their suicide orders from other countries like Qatar and Dubai living like kings.

Hamas and all terrorist organizations are the ones who need to seize to exist. Palestinian's will continue to die as long as they support these type of groups. The whole world would help the Palestinian cause if they got rid of terrorism.

Yeah, it's not like israel has been building settlements or imposing a blockade. And it's not like israel was the one that broke the last ceasefire. And it's not like the rockets stopped after a unity government was formed between Fatah and Hamas (which sent Israel into a panic because it knows once the rockets stop, the int'l pressure will mount for a 2 state solution).

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Yeah, it's not like israel has been building settlements or imposing a blockade. And it's not like israel was the one that broke the last ceasefire. And it's not like the rockets stopped after a unity government was formed between Fatah and Hamas (which sent Israel into a panic because it knows once the rockets stop, the int'l pressure will mount for a 2 state solution).

Any "ceasefire" with Hamas is a relative term. It's a question of how much rocket fire and attempted infiltrations Israel is willing to put up with before they respond:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_Israel,_2014

I also don't know why Israel is expected to deal with Hamas in good faith. They are an organization that has both deep anti-semitism and a declaration that any deal formed is temporary at best in their charter.

[Arya Stark]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Israel implemented a policy of bulldozing homes as a response to suicide murders. It appears to have worked, there is a dramatic decrease in suicide attacks. Parents now beg their kids to ignore the Hamas thugs, afraid of their homes being destroyed. Terrible it got to that. Israel would have preferred peace.

Source please. I love how how you and Blankall pass your opinions as facts and provide no sources. "parents now beg their children to not kill themselves because they might lose their homes"...as if you know that to be fact. And like the parents beg their children only for their homes, it couldn't be because they don't want to lose their kid. You are a propaganda machine.

As for the claims of mass murder and exile against Palestinians, that is pure hate speech. How else do you explain Arabs living in Israel?

Pretty easily actually. You can either be bombed by Israel whenever a war breaks out or be in Israel when Israel decides to massacre thousands of innocent people. I'd rather be in Israel too.

I am unsure about settlements, as long as there is no peace and no one negotiating in good faith on the PA side, Israel continues narrowing Palestinian options. Why would Israel prolong this? They just cannot see the Arab world tolerating them, and the fact they don't negotiate proves it. They gave gaza to the PA and got rockets in return. Israel is just the front line, other countries are becoming nervous.

There is nothing to be unsure about settlements. They are illegal. Plain and simple. Israel continues to break international laws. If this was Palestinians building settlements on Israeli land I think we know how sure you'd be.