Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Spurs

I think that if at this point you are still supporting the UCP there is no conversation that is going to change your mind, as stated above you aren't supporting them for any reason other than blind loyalty or the myth that NDP are commies, NDP means Trudeau runs Alberta, #### Trudeau etc.

I say this as someone who was a UCP voter, lifelong right wing voter at all levels. There is nothing the UCP offers to Albertans that is better than the NDP. There is no area which their policies are better not the economy, not Oil and Gas, not Provincial-Federal relations, nothing.

People have repeatedly asked for UCP voters to articulate why they are voting for the UCP as you suggest and there has been nothing but crickets because there is no reasonable answer anyone can give.

I have a very hard time believing there are people out there who are ready to jump from UCP to NDP at this point but will stop because someone said UCP voters are idiots. If that is all it takes I doubt they ever really were going to not vote UCP and are just looking for an excuse to justify what they were doing all along.

someone in my office slipped up and was honest. She believes there are only two genders and can't support, in her words "all the unnatural weirdness, especially with children"

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Spurs

I think that if at this point you are still supporting the UCP there is no conversation that is going to change your mind, as stated above you aren't supporting them for any reason other than blind loyalty or the myth that NDP are commies, NDP means Trudeau runs Alberta, #### Trudeau etc.

I say this as someone who was a UCP voter, lifelong right wing voter at all levels. There is nothing the UCP offers to Albertans that is better than the NDP. There is no area which their policies are better not the economy, not Oil and Gas, not Provincial-Federal relations, nothing.

People have repeatedly asked for UCP voters to articulate why they are voting for the UCP as you suggest and there has been nothing but crickets because there is no reasonable answer anyone can give.

I have a very hard time believing there are people out there who are ready to jump from UCP to NDP at this point but will stop because someone said UCP voters are idiots. If that is all it takes I doubt they ever really were going to not vote UCP and are just looking for an excuse to justify what they were doing all along.

Well, first I’m not a UCP voter, so let’s get that out of the way.

But the thing is, NDP supporters going around telling people how dumb they are for voting UCP don’t want to hear why they’d vote UCP. They just want to tell everyone how smart they are and how stupid these other people are. You can’t have a legitimate discussion in that circumstance.

And second, this is where some people learn that a secret ballot is a big deal. I have no doubt that some people debating their vote read this thread and feel like “why would I admit to voting UCP, so those guys can just pile on and call me an idiot?” Of course, those voices aren’t there in the ballot box, and the race is tighter than this thread seems based partly on that. Don’t think it’s true? Look at the 2016 US Presidential election, or Brexit. That’s exactly what happened there.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

someone in my office slipped up and was honest. She believes there are only two genders and can't support, in her words "all the unnatural weirdness, especially with children"

I don't agree with it but at least she is honest, although in this case maybe accidentally, about her reasons. I also think that her reasons a. make her an idiot and b. aren't going to have her voting for NDP if people stop calling her and other UCP voters idiots.

I think that saying (and i will likely butcher it) "you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't use reason to get to" fits here. There is no conversation to have with Gordon's co-worker. Nobody is going to change that view that she has and seems to be enough to outweigh any other consideration when it comes to voting. i think that is where we are at this point with anyone ready to vote UC. The facts are all clearly out there. Smith is hiding nothing at all, it is clear what her views are, clear what the parties views are. It was clear when they turfed Kenney for not being Right Wing enough.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Spurs

I don't agree with it but at least she is honest, although in this case maybe accidentally, about her reasons. I also think that her reasons a. make her an idiot and b. aren't going to have her voting for NDP if people stop calling her and other UCP voters idiots.

I think that saying (and i will likely butcher it) "you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't use reason to get to" fits here. There is no conversation to have with Gordon's co-worker. Nobody is going to change that view that she has and seems to be enough to outweigh any other consideration when it comes to voting. i think that is where we are at this point with anyone ready to vote UC. The facts are all clearly out there. Smith is hiding nothing at all, it is clear what her views are, clear what the parties views are. It was clear when they turfed Kenney for not being Right Wing enough.

If that's the case, what harm is there in calling them morons? Clearly if a position so small is enough to have you voting for someone as incompetent as Smith, and aren't going to change their vote, well...

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well, first I’m not a UCP voter, so let’s get that out of the way.

But the thing is, NDP supporters going around telling people how dumb they are for voting UCP don’t want to hear why they’d vote UCP. They just want to tell everyone how smart they are and how stupid these other people are. You can’t have a legitimate discussion in that circumstance.

And second, this is where some people learn that a secret ballot is a big deal. I have no doubt that some people debating their vote read this thread and feel like “why would I admit to voting UCP, so those guys can just pile on and call me an idiot?” Of course, those voices aren’t there in the ballot box, and the race is tighter than this thread seems based partly on that. Don’t think it’s true? Look at the 2016 US Presidential election, or Brexit. That’s exactly what happened there.

I am not sure your 2nd paragraph is true at all. I would love to hear why people are voting UCP. In part to understand their views and in part to see if there is anything left I can cling onto (I know there won't be) to sway my vote.

Calling people idiots isn't a new thing in politics. It has happened for years at the Federal level with people calling Conservative voters in Alberta idiots for just supporting the blue party. When that happened I gave my views as to why i supported the party. There were legitimate reasons to back up that view, now there are none.

The reason we can't have a legitimate discussion is that nobody is able to bring up points to discuss in favor of the UCP. When all it is is Smith putting her foot in her mouth repeatedly, nobody saying how anything the UCP will do is positive and then crickets what discussion should we be having? How is it not clear that people who can't even articulate why they support the UCP aren't idiots?

I could be wrong and if so I apologize, but it seems like you are presenting this as a both sides have arguments and we should respect both sides. I don't think that is the case at all. The UCP are at flat earth level of "opinions" and there is no point in respecting their side if they have nothing to bring to support it.

I think saying that on CP, a fairly safe place for right wing posters, that people are scared to share their reasons speaks more to those reasons rather than a risk of a pile on. But I do agree with you that there are many people on CP that will vote UCP on May 29th but won't say a thing here.

[PepsiFree]

Just because there are people that will vote one way but won’t say so doesn’t mean it has anything to do with them being called idiots. Political threads on CP are consistently populated with a higher percentage of critics than supporters, for one. And two, it’s a pretty closed group of people. If the NDP win, the same people clogging up the Federal politics thread with move over here and start calling NDP supporters idiots in the same way they call Liberal supporters idiots now lol. And if you look at the Federal thread, despite being called idiots, apologists, or any number of things, it doesn’t stop people from disputing the more outlandish critiques or being able to point to good things about the ruling party.

The problem here, in this thread today, is that Smith has no redeeming qualities and she is an objectively worse choice. She’s indefensible, and sure, people are going to vote for her, but anyone half intelligent is doing so knowing that. So why would they come here to defend something they know they can’t? I think people consistently avoid defending the indefensible. Not sure why that needs to be psychologically analyzed as the fault of someone else’s attitude towards those people.

[Fuzz]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1655925952260521984


LOL. Imprecise language.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Spurs

I think that if at this point you are still supporting the UCP there is no conversation that is going to change your mind, as stated above you aren't supporting them for any reason other than blind loyalty or the myth that NDP are commies, NDP means Trudeau runs Alberta, #### Trudeau etc.

I say this as someone who was a UCP voter, lifelong right wing voter at all levels. There is nothing the UCP offers to Albertans that is better than the NDP. There is no area which their policies are better not the economy, not Oil and Gas, not Provincial-Federal relations, nothing.

People have repeatedly asked for UCP voters to articulate why they are voting for the UCP as you suggest and there has been nothing but crickets because there is no reasonable answer anyone can give.

I have a very hard time believing there are people out there who are ready to jump from UCP to NDP at this point but will stop because someone said UCP voters are idiots. If that is all it takes I doubt they ever really were going to not vote UCP and are just looking for an excuse to justify what they were doing all along.

There is a wide spectrum of UCP voters. Most people don’t think about politics until election time. You are treating the UCP as a monolithic group of people. If you look a polling the undecided camp are people who probably consider themselves UCP voters historically so when you call them stupid for not having done the work yet you push votes away.

I don’t know if I’ve changed peoples minds but the royalty review discussion of how Notley changed her mind based on evidence and could they see Smith ever doing that at least makes people think.

[Fuzz]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...834387?cmp=rss


Really good article on who is now running the UCP. From the leader:

"This is a war between the pro-humans and anti-humans," he said. Parker referred to abortion, and modern urban women's impulse to delay having children for their careers' sake.

He also argues that NDP and progressives want to depopulate society for the sake of the environment. "You are the carbon they are trying to reduce."

Albertans have no option but to stop the NDP, he told the Grand Prairie crowd.

"You can vote your way into socialism," Parker said. "You almost always have to shoot your way out."

Still want to vote for these people? They have lost their minds. And they are running the UCP.

[Erick Estrada]

Part of the reason I'm going to have a difficult time voting NDP is that I simply don't align with a lot of the mean spirited takes in this thread or people like this in general quite frankly. I don't really want to be associated with angry people that call everyone morons for not agreeing with them. It's not a great place to be right now for me as I just don't like the options and I'm still not sure about what I'm going to do. One thing for sure is that this thread just makes it harder and harder to vote NDP for me.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Part of the reason I'm going to have a difficult time voting NDP is that I simply don't align with a lot of the mean spirited takes in this thread or people like this in general quite frankly. I don't really want to be associated with angry people that call everyone morons for not agreeing with them. It's not a great place to be right now for me as I just don't like the options and I'm still not sure about what I'm going to do. One thing for sure is that this thread just makes it harder and harder to vote NDP for me.

Then just vote UCP, or some other right-wing party. Or don't at all.

Or stop visiting this thread if you want some election and commentary zen. Politics threads anywhere drive emotion and strong perspectives.

Not sure investing your democratic rights in a thread on CP is the best thing you can do.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Part of the reason I'm going to have a difficult time voting NDP is that I simply don't align with a lot of the mean spirited takes in this thread or people like this in general quite frankly. I don't really want to be associated with angry people that call everyone morons for not agreeing with them. It's not a great place to be right now for me as I just don't like the options and I'm still not sure about what I'm going to do. One thing for sure is that this thread just makes it harder and harder to vote NDP for me.

It's not about that. You don't have to agree with any NDP policies. The "moronic" part is the idea that you could hold your nose and vote in a way that puts someone who, lets face it, any half intelligent person can realize she is gong to lead this province to disaster, and seems to be controlled by fringe elements, into office. It's not about agreeing with us, it's about evaluating the risk of your vote. It would be utterly foolish to vote for Smith after she has shown us who she is.


The fact is, if you do vote for Smith, it's a moronic move that only pride would prevent you from recognizing in 6 months. Regret won't even begin to cover it.

[timun]

"People on an internet forum are mean toward UCP supporters and call them 'morons', so by God I'm gonna prove 'em right!"

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Part of the reason I'm going to have a difficult time voting NDP is that I simply don't align with a lot of the mean spirited takes in this thread or people like this in general quite frankly. I don't really want to be associated with angry people that call everyone morons for not agreeing with them. It's not a great place to be right now for me as I just don't like the options and I'm still not sure about what I'm going to do. One thing for sure is that this thread just makes it harder and harder to vote NDP for me.

I don' think NDP supporters have a monopoly on mean spirited takes. Every political party has their ship of fools who think they've got it all figured out. Go to a bar in okatocs or sit in the dining hall of an O and G camp and listen to what they have to say about folks who vote NDP. It's not pretty.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Part of the reason I'm going to have a difficult time voting NDP is that I simply don't align with a lot of the mean spirited takes in this thread or people like this in general quite frankly. I don't really want to be associated with angry people that call everyone morons for not agreeing with them. It's not a great place to be right now for me as I just don't like the options and I'm still not sure about what I'm going to do. One thing for sure is that this thread just makes it harder and harder to vote NDP for me.

You should watch Fox News for 1 hour and revisit your position.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Part of the reason I'm going to have a difficult time voting NDP is that I simply don't align with a lot of the mean spirited takes in this thread or people like this in general quite frankly. I don't really want to be associated with angry people that call everyone morons for not agreeing with them. It's not a great place to be right now for me as I just don't like the options and I'm still not sure about what I'm going to do. One thing for sure is that this thread just makes it harder and harder to vote NDP for me.

How stupid do you have to be to write this post while our premier, the leader of the other party, is apologizing for the third time this month for publicly insulting a large swath of people while in office? Seriously man, get your head checked.

[PsYcNeT]

Pretty much should be reposted every day until the election:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...z2M/edit#gid=0

Just take a really long, arms-length look at this list and ask yourself if you want an accelerated version of what's already been done.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Slava

When I read this quote it doesn’t make me want to vote for a party though. It makes me realize how inept they are at finding good leadership in the first place. They had candidates like Travis Toews last time, and whatever you might think of his politics, he probably would have won this election.

Yes, we should all be comforted that Travis "Yoga is witchcraft" Toews is waiting in the wings to lead the party when Danielle gets tossed a month into her term. That DEFINITELY won't lead us down the garden path to a theocratic state. No way.

[surferguy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Part of the reason I'm going to have a difficult time voting NDP is that I simply don't align with a lot of the mean spirited takes in this thread or people like this in general quite frankly. I don't really want to be associated with angry people that call everyone morons for not agreeing with them. It's not a great place to be right now for me as I just don't like the options and I'm still not sure about what I'm going to do. One thing for sure is that this thread just makes it harder and harder to vote NDP for me.

You also need to remember that everybody in this thread is likely an avid follower of politics, an elevated level of engagement. There are emotional supporters and detractors who will defend their positions either way.

This thread is not a cross section of the general population. Do not let 20 hardcore NDP supporters (“who think you are the dumbest person on earth for voting for the UCP”) sway you from voting for the NDP.

You need to be completely honest with yourself, is voting for Danielle Smith worth it?

At this point, with all of the evidence that has come to light, and there will be more, we know who she is.

For everything you stand for, your job, your wallet, your ethics, your family, your willingness to help your neighbors etc - Does Danielle Smith align with those values. Does she best represent you and your outlook on the world?

[puffnstuff]

Buddy told his parents why he was voting for the ndp. They asked why as they are intending to vote conservative, as they always have.
He was very blunt. He laid out that all their grandkids are figuring to leave if the ucp win. All 3 of those kids are recent university grads, can work anywhere, none work in O and G (he does)