A good example of why the religious suck

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

No I don't.

But can you think of a man made variable that would beat it?

I can't.

War? The two greatest wars on Earth to ever be fought, taking more lives than all wars before them -- combined -- have been fought for completely non-religious reasons. They spurred the development of ever more deadlier weapons, ones that are able to kill on a mass scale -- ones that can even end the world.

If it weren't religion, the void would be filled by something else. It's an attempt to answer the exact same questions we are trying to answer today through more modern means. Remove it by some imaginary means in your head, and that doesn't mean the Roman Empire would have suddenly, and naturally, morphed into a technocracy.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Its obtuse, and you're making an argument that is impossible to confirm. You also fail to recognize that religious organizations have also preserved knowledge through the ages. The Islamic empire during the dark ages is one example that comes to mind. They transcribed thousands of texts from latin and greek into arabic which survived while that same knowledge was lost or forgotten in Europe.

I am not argueing, I thought we were just adults having a friendly disscussion. I know it cant be confirmned, it is a discussion about religion for crying out loud. I am throwing out thoughts for discussion.
If you would like to join a forum that had no opinions allowed, it would make for a very slow site.

Do you know why there were dark ages in Europe. It was the struggle of Kings claiming divine right as they used religion to justify their actions.
have you ever seen the order of the masses? God on top with a King claiming to be chosen from God and where was religion but standing at the front right beside them sharing in that power. I would WONDER how long Kings could maintain power with just might and without the aid of divine right.

Yes there has been good from religion but I feel the cons outweigh the pros.

I wish you all goodnight it is late

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

No I don't.

But can you think of a man made variable that would beat it?

I can't.

Human govermental structures that limited the avaliability of education to the masses.

War and disease limiting life spans.

Distrust between warring nations limiting the spread of knowledge.

limitation of travel due to lack of legal protection for foreigners.

Little concern for the preservation of Knowledge outside of religious institutions.

lack of free time. Preoccupied with survival.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

My OPINION is that we should have been in space hundreds of years ago but religion had dragged it down for centuries. We should have had the advancements sooner than the dates we did. How many men of science had ideas oppressed by religion through the centuries.

I think you are just being optuse to win an argument.

I very much doubt that. The science of refining metals which is key to space travel wasn't suppressed. Nor was navigation.

Electricity was not suppressed by religion, nor combustion, navigation. The scientific method was invented by Islamic scholars. Rocketry was invented by the Chinese and I can't see where religion suppressed it.

Please show me where religion suppressed computers, basic math, internal combustion, transmission of data, radio and advanced communication, the telephone. Pressurized travel.

I very much doubt your claim.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

I am not argueing, I thought we were just adults having a friendly disscussion. I know it cant be confirmned, it is a discussion about religion for crying out loud. I am throwing out thoughts for discussion.
If you would like to join a forum that had no opinions allowed, it would make for a very slow site.

Do you know why there were dark ages in Europe. It was the struggle of Kings claiming divine right as they used religion to justify their actions.
have you ever seen the order of the masses? God on top with a King claiming to be chosen from God and where was religion but standing at the front right beside them sharing in that power. I would WONDER how long Kings could maintain power with just might and without the aid

of divine right.

Yes there has been good from religion but I feel the cons outweigh the pros.

I wish you all goodnight it is late

That isn't why there was a "Dark Age" in Europe at all. At all.

The idea and practice of the "divine right" that you speak of didn't come into being until about 100 years following the Reformation, in the 17th century. It was actually quite the contrary in Europe before that. Kings and other rulers didn't have the power to do much of anything all that "kingly" because of the fact that they didn't have much might in the first place. The decentralized nature of the various "countries" didn't allow for it.

The powerful nation-states you see today, particularly in the West, owe quite a bit to the royal absolutism resulting from that divine claim.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

I am not argueing, I thought we were just adults having a friendly disscussion. I know it cant be confirmned, it is a discussion about religion for crying out loud. I am throwing out thoughts for discussion.
If you would like to join a forum that had no opinions allowed, it would make for a very slow site.

Do you know why there were dark ages in Europe. It was the struggle of Kings claiming divine right as they used religion to justify their actions.
have you ever seen the order of the masses? God on top with a King claiming to be chosen from God and where was religion but standing at the front right beside them sharing in that power. I would WONDER how long Kings could maintain power with just might and without the aid of divine right.

There are also examples that are fairly numerous of the ability to hold onto power with just might as opposed to some religious right to power.

The French kings were continually overthrown and they were kingships seeped in religion. The Russian Aristocracy fell because of an absence of final might and religion didn't protect it.

For the most part the people didn't cow to their kings because of religion, but because they had been indoctrinated into the life of being a peasant for so long that life just didn't seem so bad. And there was a fear that what might come after was worse.

If these kings who were one step under god didn't have the might to enforce their power they would have been left in the dust or lost their head in so many of the revolutions that occurred with or without church backing.

Yes there has been good from religion but I feel the cons outweigh the pros.

I wish you all goodnight it is late

I honestly think that there is a convenient scapegoating of religion that is used to cover the basic weakness of man. While the various religions in the world have to take a lot of the blame for troubles. I think mans darker, violent and more aggressive nature is a bigger factor in the problems that haunt mankind.

[Vulcan]

The only limit I see that religion or that religious practise can put a limit on scientific research in today's society, is that I notice when I practise what I do, I get less antagonistic and less ambitious because when I'm at peace, why do I need more.

Off course all I have to do is post on Calpuck and the antagonism all comes back.

[Devils'Advocate]

This whole conversation reminds me of "Contact". Sure the crazy preacher guy extremist was against building the new technology - man playing God, if God wanted us in outer space he would have made it easier, progress is the work of Satan. And the pure reasoning ambitious scientist was going to have this ship built no matter what. It was those in the middle of the two extremes that had to build the bridges between the two communities.

Religion *IS* limiting some forms of science. Stem cell research. Gene therapy.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

This whole conversation reminds me of "Contact". Sure the crazy preacher guy extremist was against building the new technology - man playing God, if God wanted us in outer space he would have made it easier, progress is the work of Satan. And the pure reasoning ambitious scientist was going to have this ship built no matter what. It was those in the middle of the two extremes that had to build the bridges between the two communities.

Religion *IS* limiting some forms of science. Stem cell research. Gene therapy.

Religion is limiting stem cell research in the same way the government is limiting your ability to own a Lamborghini: They don't want to pay for it.