[Trade] NYR trade Kakko to Seattle for Borgen, 2025 3rd, 2025 6th

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by D as in David

I don't see what a slow, mediocre counting stats winger brings to the Flames. What do people think is going to pop about his game?

Because some time you find a Sam Bennett

Most of the time you don’t but if you give up nothing of value then why not give it a shot

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Because some time you find a Sam Bennett

Most of the time you don’t but if you give up nothing of value then why not give it a shot

Most of the time you get a Lias Andersson though. There is usually a very good reason a team gives up a player in their mid 20’s who was formerly drafted high for nothing.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by stemit14

Makes you realize how tough it is to project these players when they are 17/18. So many players in this draft are disappointing compared to where they were drafted. Tough to plan to be bad for the “right” draft. So much luck is involved in getting the right top pick at the right moment. And then developing them properly.

Yes and no. It wasn't a case of the later rounds lighting it up. You go get one of two guys in each round after the first that the up was overshooting their draft position, not it's still pretty amazing that out of so many protectors the top 30 picks end up being pretty close to the top 30 NHL players from that year.

[Ped]

Every time someone wants to exaggerate they pull out Lias Andersson. Kakko is not Lias Andersson, who had 7 goals and 17 points in 110 NHL games, and never had more than 6 points in a season, and is no longer in the NHL.


Kakko at the very least is a 3rd line guy whose EV scoring matches with Zibanejad and Kreider this year. He already has a 40 point season, and he's defensively responsible enough to stay in this league.

[Nelson]

I like this move a lot for Seattle and Kakko. I think Seattle can slide Kakko next to Beniers on the top line and move Tanev down.

I think New York made the move for bad reasons like the team’s not playing well, Kakko made public statements about being scratched, etc.

I would’ve been happy to be in Seattle’s position if I was Craig, but I’m not upset the Flames didn’t make this trade. Kakko is a left-handed winger, not an centre, and he’s shown more like a middle-six forward than a top-line forward so far.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Ped

Every time someone wants to exaggerate they pull out Lias Andersson. Kakko is not Lias Andersson, who had 7 goals and 17 points in 110 NHL games, and never had more than 6 points in a season, and is no longer in the NHL.


Kakko at the very least is a 3rd line guy whose EV scoring matches with Zibanejad and Kreider this year. He already has a 40 point season, and he's defensively responsible enough to stay in this league.

Well Ty Smith then instead of Andersson. Or Puljujarvi. Or Alex Nylander.

Point being you are far more likely to get a dud than a stud like Bennett.

[Ped]

Okay, but we already know more or less what Kakko is at the very least. He's not one of those guys. Trading for a guy like Kakko is a lot different than trading for a guy who is not established as an NHL regular.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Out in Banff with Family but I too want to inquire.
I know the Flames called to see what the cost was weeks ago, but I’m not sure if they submitted any formal offers.

Will update when I hear.

On a personal note, I’m shocked this is all it took… seems like a low cost for a guy that could pop.
I do wonder if the words forced Drury’s hand in the sense that he just wanted him gone. The cost was rumoured to be a 1st just 3 weeks ago…

To be fair, Borgen could be argued to be worth a 2nd, which would make the deal: 2nd + 3rd + 5th which is not materially different from a late 1st.

It comes down to how you value Borgen.

(like the Sharangovich trade for Toffoli)

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well Ty Smith then instead of Andersson. Or Puljujarvi. Or Alex Nylander.

Point being you are far more likely to get a dud than a stud like Bennett.

Kakko is closer to Bennett than all the other dudes you mentioned

He has shown some flashes but a lot of struggles, just like Bennett did here

Before someone jumps on me again, I am not comparing styles or skills. Just potential.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

To be fair, Borgen could be argued to be worth a 2nd, which would make the deal: 2nd + 3rd + 5th which is not materially different from a late 1st.

It comes down to how you value Borgen.

(like the Sharangovich trade for Toffoli)

Yeah Borgen is not a fringe or borderline NHLer like some people claim

He is a regular NHLer for a few years now

[Paulie Walnuts]

Conroy is also not in the market for a winger. He has specifically said a C.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Yeah Borgen is not a fringe or borderline NHLer like some people claim

He is a regular NHLer for a few years now

Seattle have some good regulars on d and have been a decent defensive team at times.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Kakko is closer to Bennett than all the other dudes you mentioned

He has shown some flashes but a lot of struggles, just like Bennett did here

Before someone jumps on me again, I am not comparing styles or skills. Just potential.

Yup. And the trade was made by a spiraling team, which the GM is desperately trying to "fix" and Kakko was out openly being critical about coaching decisions around him. It's ripe for a low ball offer, which this looks to be (even though I like Borgen too).

Kakko has more value in this league that what was paid -- and while someone will jump on me and say the value is what Seattle paid, it's not the way these things work. GMs aren't typically going to offer full value when a player is obviously looking to get out and when the selling GM is trying to put out fires before he gets fired.

Kakko could flop, but it's certainly a gamble worth taking at that price.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Saw this Kadri/ Cozens comparison in another thread which is just terrible. They’re over 10 years apart in age. More certainty with Kadri because will see a gradual decline for the next three years followed by a huge drop off. Not intended to derail the thread.

Drury gets a poor return in this deal just to prove a point. Really hard to believe this is the best he could get for a player who still has so much potential.

You think he took a worse deal out of spite? Kakko has been shopped around for a few years now. It is far more likely that this is the best deal NYR could get.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

You think he took a worse deal out of spite? Kakko has been shopped around for a few years now. It is far more likely that this is the best deal NYR could get.

I think he took a worse deal than he could have gotten if he were willing (or able) to be patient.

But you're point is right... this would have been the best deal on the table from NYR's perspective if they wanted to move him now... and they did.

[Jason14h]

Kakko is getting worse though, not better. Patient? This is a guy in 6th season in the NHL and hes topped out at 40 points and 18 goals.

If he wasnt a 2nd overall pick people would think this was an overpay.

Obviously all the other GM's in the league didn't see KK as overly valuable. You think next week someone is coming to NY and offering a better deal because they were patient and now KK is seen as more valuable?

GM's not putting their best offer forward makes zero sense for a non NTC player. The GM's are competing against each other's best offers, not some mythical goal to undercut the Rangers from a position of weakness.

The reason teams trading former high picks are usually doing so from a position of weakness is because the asset has problems and the value isn't seen as high / many teams have zero interest. The weakness IS the perceived value of the failed high pick

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by YyjFlames

I think he took a worse deal than he could have gotten if he were willing (or able) to be patient.

But you're point is right... this would have been the best deal on the table from NYR's perspective if they wanted to move him now... and they did.

But keep in mind this wasn't a case of the player making comments and the GM throwing him up on the market that day and making a trade two days later. The player has been actively shopped for months, with many teams being in on it that whole time as everyone figured out what his value was.

So yes this was the final straw that likely had Drury go to all interested teams and say "this still your offer?" and then take the highest, but I don't personally believe waiting another week/3 weeks/month would have changed any teams offer. Kakko is what he is at this point in terms of trade value and this has been coming for a long time.

[jayswin]

They were rumored to be asking a 1st, with teams being below that ask. So a defensemen that may equal about a 2nd, a 3rd and a 6th being paid for Kakko, I'd argue that's likely right around where a bunch of teams were offering all along and Kakko's public comments just made it trigger time on one of the deals that was already there.

[SuperMatt18]

I think the reality of the return in this trade is that New York valued Borgen a lot more than most on here would (or you could argue should).

After moving Trouba (RH 6'3" 212) I think they wanted another big RH dman to slot into the spot he vacated and Borgen was that guy (RH, 6'3, 205)

And if Borgen's closest Flames comparison is Pachal then I think the valuation being a 2nd round pick for Borgen is probably pretty close. I wouldn't trade Pachal for a 3rd round pick, but I'd probably at least start thinking about it for a 2nd.

And based on the Rangers still wanting to contend this year a piece like Borgen probably holds more value than a 2nd round pick would to them.

[transplant99]

Drury is flat out sewering that franchise and sounds like he is running things like a 3rd world dictator.

Then there’s the shocking dismissal of long-time team trainer Jim Ramsay in 2023. The Rangers terminated Ramsay’s employment with the team after 29 years without stating a reason.

“We don’t comment on employee matters,” a team spokesperson said.

The Rangers’ leadership group was reportedly devastated for Ramsay and shared their opinions with management. That’s when things got ugly with Kreider and the team, reports say.

From Mercogliano:

Multiple sources indicated the shocking dismissal was framed as an ownership decision and had a chilling effect on the team. Ramsay was beloved by most players, who privately let their displeasure be known.

Kreider was among the most aggrieved, with his frustration boiling over Feb. 15, 2024 – the night Ramsay returned to MSG for the first time as head trainer for the Montreal Canadiens.

He netted a hat trick in the 7-4 win and was one of several players to embrace their former trainer after the game, yet Kreider curiously declined to speak to the media after being named the No. 1 star of the game. According to one source, it was because Kreider was so upset by the Rangers’ treatment of Ramsay and refusal to acknowledge his return and feared he might not be able to hold that anger back if interviewed.

The most damning evidence of toxicity in the organization though comes from an internal memo by the team leaked to reporters. In it, Drury warns that interactions between team staff and roster players could be grounds for dismissal. This reportedly comes after a PR employee had dinner with a Rangers player following a media event.

More from Mercogliano:

Drury’s memo to all NHL GMs has garnered a ton of attention lately, but it was an internal memo − exclusively obtained by lohud.com/USA TODAY − that reverberated throughout the organization earlier this year.

In the aftermath of a PR person being fired for having dinner with a player following a media event prior to the new season, a letter signed by Drury, as well as Knicks president Leon Rose and MSG COO Jamaal Lesane, was distributed to all team employees issuing “a reminder regarding the expectations of behavior when interacting with the players or coaches of any of our Teams.”

Staffers were told that “absent written approval from an Executive Vice President (‘EVP’) or above,” they were prohibited from staying at the same hotel as any of the teams under the MSG umbrella, including the minor-league Hartford Wolf Pack and Westchester Knicks, traveling on team flights or buses, or attending team social gatherings or meals, according to the memo.

Furthermore, it mandated that employees keep as much distance as possible at the rink.

So its all about teamwork and doing things to be successful as an organization .....except for those who dont put the jersey on. If you are one of those, you are not worthy of even talking to players and coaches outside the parameters of the team, and if you do...you are fired.

Yikes.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nhl...ko/ar-AA1waGx5