People are saying the Arizona could move to Quebec rather than Houston if there is a suddenly need for a re-location.
I just don't think that would be a good idea.
Quebec is a very small city. It's also a very poor city.
Quebec also has higher taxes than any of these cities by a fairly large margin.
So you might say, but Quebecers love hockey. The problem is, they don’t. At least not really.
Quebec sucks at hockey. It's the worst per capita after New Brunswick. This trend shows no sign of slowing.
I lived in Quebec City for a year, the city is a dump. Even Cleveland is nicer. I doubt any NHL player would want to live there.
Winnipeg is comparable to Quebec City in total GDP and population. But Winnipegers actually like hockey, speak English and pay slightly less in taxes.
I don’t see why any Owner would want to move to Quebec. Even for the short term.
I agree the NHL in Quebec is not a great idea, but not for the same reasons.
It is a government city, similar to Winnipeg but with a slightly larger population (~800k). They do have a relatively diverse economy, but I don't suspect there is a lot of disposable income to meet current NHL prices. That being said, the average household income (probably a better indicator of financial capacity to consume entertainment then GDP) is higher than in Winnipeg, although any advantage is probably neutralized through taxes.
There are not many billionaires in QC, the only publicly interested owner is a media magnate (like in Winnipeg), so if their fortunes fail there are not many options for the NHL to fall back on.
IF the NHL were to go there it would be with the assumption that ticket prices, and the team cap would be below league averages. The NHL would also have to be comfortable that the ownership model is somewhat unstable due to the lack of other options. Finally, I don't think that a team in QC would expand the viewership or create many new fans for the sport (similar to Winnipeg). Quebec City is a backup plan in the event a US franchise is in crisis and needs a stable home.
Your analysis regarding the popularity of hockey based on the number of NHL players produced by capita is pretty ignorant. Did you forget that the half the NHL teams are in markets that rarely produce players? I guess Tampa, Nashville, San Jose, Washington DC, etc are also horrible markets who dislike hockey.
The tax issue has been widely debunked by a number of financial experts who have found ways to reduce the major discrepancies between markets.
As far as no NHL player wanting to live there due to the slightly higher taxes, language and it being a 'dump' - I guess that is your perspective. Although the fact that players live in Montreal (and played on the Nordiques for years suggest otherwise). Furthermore, I have never heard of QC being defined as a dump, considering its downtown is a UNESCO World Heritage site and the city has maintained the majority of its architectural heritage (although if your reference point is strip malls and cul-de-sacs I suppose the lack of big box stores would be frustrating). Finally, not all people base their life choices on where they pay the least tax - taxes are not a bad thing if they result in a higher quality of life.
I think that the issue is there is no transit to get there, and no convenient way. So sure, it might take the same amount of time for me to get to the Saddledome, but if the Saddledome was in Airdrie and the only way there was driving it would make things difficult for a lot of fans for various reasons.
No transit is huge, the only times I really take the train are for Flames games and the Stampede.
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Side show, but the bigger issue for me is Bettman's insistence on being in the top US TV markets regardless of the local interest in the sport... so incredibly tone deaf taking the if you build it they will come approach.
You have to recognize that certain markets will never be hockey towns, people have no connection to the game, kids don't play it, it's not going to happen there. They draw crowds only when the teams are dominant for short stints. And so you attract sleezy fly by night owners financing their purchases on houses of cards because anyone with any sense or ties to the local market has no interest in the sport and recognizes the investment is a dog.
You can't just look at the total population and conclude that you have to make a team work somewhere without any local interest in the industry/sport. Mexico City is bigger than any of them and no one would be stupid enough to try and put an NHL team there.
And using revenue sharing, which was originally intended to address inequities in the US and Canadian dollars, to prop up these markets like Sunrise and Glendale - I still don't know why the other owners are willing to support it.
Glendale's been highlighted because of how bad the ownership has been, but with increasing competition for entertainment dollars and traditional cable based TV dying I think in 20 years a lot of the sun belt teams will be gone unless the NHL goes full collectivist and forces pooling of all revenues/completely undermines the big markets.
Atlanta was first but Glendale, Sunrise (sorry Cali) and I also think Raleigh will be gone. Tampa's the anomaly because the team has been so good for so long but 15-20 years of inept mgmt and I think they'll be just as bad off at the box office and super isolated if the Panthers and Canes move north or west. Texas for some reason seems to be bucking the trend and maybe they can create a bit of a hockey culture in the sun like California, but will be interested to see how Houston does.
This is bang on. The NHL puts teams in so called big markets and never puts them on tv. The Lightning, contenders the last few years and also in the early 2000s are never on NBC. Do they except the big market of Phoenix to watch the Rangers all the time?
Imagine if the 80s Oilers were never on HNIC.
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Wait a second I love crapping on Arizona as much as the next guy but it’s a half hour drive from Scottsdale to Glendale, are we really pretending it’s undertaking a trek on the Oregon Trail to get to a game? That really makes that big a difference huh?
The last time I went to a Coyotes game it took me an hour by cab from Scottsdale.
Granted I was already tilted at that point.
Or was it a Cards game actually?
Either way, if they plopped that identical setup in Scottsdale or Mesa, the Coyotes would be quasi-successful.
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
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Originally Posted by GirlySports
This is bang on. The NHL puts teams in so called big markets and never puts them on tv. The Lightning, contenders the last few years and also in the early 2000s are never on NBC. Do they except the big market of Phoenix to watch the Rangers all the time?
Imagine if the 80s Oilers were never on HNIC.
The NHL sells the rights to networks to show national games.
The networks decide who appears in those games....not the NHL. And guess who gets the majority of those spots? Obviously those with the most eyeballs to attract.
And you cant compare showing Canadian teams in a Canadian market versus America teams in the American market. Two different animals entirely.
Canadians will watch rutting Elks play rabie infested Beavers on a pond in the Yukon if its being shown.
The NHL sells the rights to networks to show national games.
The networks decide who appears in those games....not the NHL. And guess who gets the majority of those spots? Obviously those with the most eyeballs to attract.
And you cant compare showing Canadian teams in a Canadian market versus America teams in the American market. Two different animals entirely.
Canadians will watch rutting Elks play rabie infested Beavers on a pond in the Yukon if its being shown.
Way tougher audiences to grab in the US.
Hmm, there must be something, conditions maybe? The NBA can show Golden State vs OKC at the height of their powers but the NHL have to shove the crappy Rangers down American's throats year after year? The NHL TV deal is obviously poor.
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Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
I'm surprised that people like the entertainment area around the rink. To me it is a suburban wasteland. Dave and Buster's, Johnny Rocket's, it is outdated chain restaurant heaven and completely dead unless there is a football game. Luckily given the location I doubt its anything like what will happen in Calgary.
The location in Glendale is inconvenient, but not why the team is failing IMO. Yes there's no great transit accessibility but Phoenix is a spread out, driving town. Only a few miles of rail lines. But yeah, hockey is no one's first priority in Phoenix so convenience of going to a game is important.
The growth of minor hockey in Phoenix is being underestimated. We have travelled to a few large minor hockey tournaments held there. There are several rinks, and quite a few teams.
I do think the NHL in Phoenix could have worked but enough bad decisions along the way and seems like it is inevitable it will move. I used to believe Fertitta wanted to bring a team to Houston since he controls the arena, but now I wonder if he has the financial means.
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Hahah I’m sorry.. I just feel like they are the 2nd most problematic franchise due to less fan support and historically don’t want to pay players so they continually offload talent and replace them with bargain bin players and the cycle continues.
Arizona, Florida, Carolina and NYI I would say have all had their fare share of issues but yes you are right Arizona is alone on an island as being the biggest joke in the league.
I also would love to see the Nordiques return and relocating Arizona doesn’t help with that as no other team can be moved into the west once things get back to normal.
But, like I said I’m sorry hahah they are looking outstanding this year and when they are a better team fan interest improves so I shouldn’t pick on them.
Wait a second I love crapping on Arizona as much as the next guy but it’s a half hour drive from Scottsdale to Glendale, are we really pretending it’s undertaking a trek on the Oregon Trail to get to a game? That really makes that big a difference huh?
Just for comparison, from where, and when? I love it when the tourists come to town and tell me how easy it is to get around when they are traveling at less than peak time. I took a cab from a hotel right off the 101 and did the trip in 30 minutes in light traffic. Did I mention I did it at 3:00 in the afternoon? Phoenix has great roads, but when rush hour hits so does gridlock. Same trip between the hours of five and seven PM, when most residents would be traveling, is a gong show and adds 30-45 minutes to any trip, thanks to rush hour congestion. That is indicative of a city with 4.2 million people.
Scottsdale is hardly the measure that should be used to determine where the fans are coming from. Just like you shouldn't say that the commute from Mount Royal (the community) to the Saddledome is so quick that fans shouldn't complain about location of the building or support facilities. Most "fans" live in the 'burbs. That's your measuring post. Take into consideration the need to get home after work, get the kids, and then make the trek to the arena. Not as easy as suggested.
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Great article by Katie. And a legal threat against the Athletic. Sounds like she poked a nerve. I hope people in media and the league have her back against that legal threat and also Armstrong's strong-arming tactics. Ya...i went there.
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Phoenix is the 11th largest TV market in the U.S. The overriding ambition of the NHL is to get franchises in as many of the top 30 markets as they can in hopes of securing the holy grail - a fat $$$ broadcast contract.
TV market needs to be taken with a grain of salt though. Big picture, I get it. The higher the volume, the higher potential for finding new viewers. In the short term , the size of the TV isn't as important as affinity to the product in any given market. The NHL, by supporting Phoenix is thinking long term, as they should IMO.
The demographics of the TV market matter. I know it is a huge generalization to say that southerners are not interested in watching hockey, but affinity to sports does have a relationship to racial, ethnic, and cultural backgrounds. Hockey more so than most professional sports has always been niche. There is a lot more inclusion now than there ever was, but we are not all the way there yet.
It's one of the reasons why hockey was a tough TV sell in a huge TV market like Atlanta for example, or why it sells better in Tampa than Miami (same state, but very different demographics) Or why large TV markets like Charlotte, New Orleans, Indianapolis, or San Diego are never mentioned as being in the running for NHL teams. Or to use a non-hockey example, why the NBA was a tough sell in Vancouver. I get that it is a sensitive thing to talk about, but the demographic make-up of a city can obscure what the immediately accessible market size for that particular product. I think this becomes more pronounced the further south you go.
If you Google "Arizona Coyotes crowd" and view the images, it's not a very diverse crowd, in a city where, according to Wikipedia, only 40% of the population are non-Hispanic white (and 65% non-white).
The goal for the NHL is to reach out to demographics where hockey isn't a tradition, which is great and why having a team in Phoenix has been so important to the NHL. They are playing the long game, and having a presence in non-traditional markets is important for the future viability of the sport. The demographics of the United States are changing and Phoenix is a microcosm of that (was 95% white only 50 years ago). If the NHL doesn't reach a more diverse crowd, it will not compete very well down the road.
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 02-17-2021 at 12:36 PM.
TV market needs to be taken with a grain of salt though. Big picture, I get it. The higher the volume, the higher potential for finding new viewers. In the short term , the size of the TV isn't as important as affinity to the product in any given market. The NHL, by supporting Phoenix is thinking long term, as they should IMO.
The demographics of the TV market matter. I know it is a huge generalization to say that southerners are not interested in watching hockey, but affinity to sports does have a relationship to racial, ethnic, and cultural backgrounds. Hockey more so than most professional sports has always been niche. There is a lot more inclusion now than there ever was, but we are not all the way there yet.
It's one of the reasons why hockey was a tough TV sell in a huge TV market like Atlanta for example, or why it sells better in Tampa than Miami (same state, but very different demographics) Or why large TV markets like Charlotte, New Orleans, Indianapolis, or San Diego are never mentioned as being in the running for NHL teams. Or to use a non-hockey example, why the NBA was a tough sell in Vancouver. I get that it is a sensitive thing to talk about, but the demographic make-up of a city can obscure what the market size for that particular product is. I think this becomes more pronounced the further south you go.
If you Google "Arizona Coyotes crowd" and view the images, it's not a very diverse crowd, in a city where, according to Wikipedia, only 40% of the population are non-Hispanic white.
The goal for the NHL is to reach out to demographics where hockey isn't a tradition, which is great and why having a team in Phoenix has been so important to the NHL. They are playing the long game, and having a presence in non-traditional markets is important for the future viability of the sport. The demographics of the United States are changing and Phoenix is a microcosm of that (was 95% white only 50 years ago). If the NHL doesn't reach a more diverse crowd, it will not compete very well down the road.
Hockey is very traditional still. Old boys club. I will echo my US election strategy here. You've got to get into the Spanish diaspora to get attention. Why is there no Spanish broadcast of Coyotes games? The team's been there 25 years!
There is in Vegas (from the start), Miami and surprisingly, Chicago! Get onto the Spanish radio, Spanish newspapers. There's already an advantage with hockey concepts/rules being similar to soccer that Latinos can understand. NHL wants big markets but its much more than just being there.
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Hockey is very traditional still. Old boys club. I will echo my US election strategy here. You've got to get into the Spanish diaspora to get attention. Why is there no Spanish broadcast of Coyotes games? The team's been there 25 years!
There is in Vegas (from the start), Miami and surprisingly, Chicago! Get onto the Spanish radio, Spanish newspapers. There's already an advantage with hockey concepts/rules being similar to soccer that Latinos can understand. NHL wants big markets but its much more than just being there.
Really good point. I am surprised that they don't have a Spanish broadcast in a state where for a lot of people, Spanish is the language people speak at home.
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Really good point. I am surprised that they don't have a Spanish broadcast in a state where for a lot of people, Spanish is the language people speak at home.
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Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
I'm surprised that people like the entertainment area around the rink. To me it is a suburban wasteland. Dave and Buster's, Johnny Rocket's, it is outdated chain restaurant heaven and completely dead unless there is a football game.
This. It’s sooooo lame. Like a poorly executed adult Disney land.
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In November, agitated that organizational information had been obtained by The Athletic, Armstrong contacted this reporter, offering a theory that his daily schedule and other files had been stolen from his computer. He warned that the person who he surmised was responsible would be going to jail. After delivering a lecture on journalism ethics, Armstrong asked this reporter what she thought would happen if he were to tell general managers around the league how she did her job.
