TheAthletic: The dysfunctional Arizona Coyotes saga continues under Alex Meruelo

[FireGilbert]

How about this when the Yotes finally move to let’s say Houston. It’s sort of like what was done with the North Stars during the Sharks expansion.

1. The Jets get to pick any 3 players off the Yotes roster.
2. Houston gets the remaining Yotes plus 3 players off the Jets per existing expansion protection rules.
3. The Jets officially regain their heritage and are considered a merger of the original Jets and the Thrashes franchises. The new Houston team is considered an expansion team.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Nsd1

https://twitter.com/user/status/1361775543591464961

This is insane. I hope journalists unite behind Katie and the NHL begins to hold the Coyotes accountable.

It's comical that even in this press release, they refer to him as "Mr."

[N-E-B]

Between this and the statement they issued after the Chayka debacle they should really hire a new PR guy.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Matty81

Side show, but the bigger issue for me is Bettman's insistence on being in the top US TV markets regardless of the local interest in the sport... so incredibly tone deaf taking the if you build it they will come approach.

You have to recognize that certain markets will never be hockey towns, people have no connection to the game, kids don't play it, it's not going to happen there. They draw crowds only when the teams are dominant for short stints. And so you attract sleezy fly by night owners financing their purchases on houses of cards because anyone with any sense or ties to the local market has no interest in the sport and recognizes the investment is a dog.

You can't just look at the total population and conclude that you have to make a team work somewhere without any local interest in the industry/sport. Mexico City is bigger than any of them and no one would be stupid enough to try and put an NHL team there.

And using revenue sharing, which was originally intended to address inequities in the US and Canadian dollars, to prop up these markets like Sunrise and Glendale - I still don't know why the other owners are willing to support it.

Glendale's been highlighted because of how bad the ownership has been, but with increasing competition for entertainment dollars and traditional cable based TV dying I think in 20 years a lot of the sun belt teams will be gone unless the NHL goes full collectivist and forces pooling of all revenues/completely undermines the big markets.

Atlanta was first but Glendale, Sunrise (sorry Cali) and I also think Raleigh will be gone. Tampa's the anomaly because the team has been so good for so long but 15-20 years of inept mgmt and I think they'll be just as bad off at the box office and super isolated if the Panthers and Canes move north or west. Texas for some reason seems to be bucking the trend and maybe they can create a bit of a hockey culture in the sun like California, but will be interested to see how Houston does.

I think your two paragraphs contradict each other in non-traditional markets being successful. If that was truly the case, then hockey shouldn't be working in California either. But as you mentioned about Tampa Bay, if a franchise can be successful, it will generate support. And although Phoenix has largely been irrelevant for their entire history, it has produced an elite level hockey player.

But it definitely is a very uphill battle, and if you don't have a period of being a competitive team, you're SOL in being able to stay.

It just feels like at this point that Phoenix is just not going to work out, and it'll be moving to either Houston (they may like hockey more now because of their current weather) or Quebec City. After Seattle starts up, those two cities are next on the queue, with Kansas City being a wildcard I suppose.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

I understand the Coyotes were not treated as an expansion team at the time but don’t get your argument as to why things can’t be changed now. Can’t the NHL just sort out any licensing issues and make the change retroactively?

They could, but what would be the point? It's a fact that the original Winnipeg Jets franchise is now in Arizona, and it's a fact that the franchise now in Winnipeg was originally the Atlanta Thrashers. And it's a fact that Winnipeg was without an NHL team for 15 years, and for most of that time there was no plan to bring a team back there. Pretending otherwise will not make these facts go away.

By the way, there is precedent in the NHL for relocating a team and treating it as an expansion franchise in the new location. The New York Americans (1925-1942) were considered a new franchise which merely inherited the players of the defunct Hamilton Tigers (1920-1925). The fact that this was not done when the Jets left town demonstrates that the NHL had no intention of repeating that precedent in this case.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Joborule

I think your two paragraphs contradict each other in non-traditional markets being successful. If that was truly the case, then hockey shouldn't be working in California either. But as you mentioned about Tampa Bay, if a franchise can be successful, it will generate support. And although Phoenix has largely been irrelevant for their entire history, it has produced an elite level hockey player.

But it definitely is a very uphill battle, and if you don't have a period of being a competitive team, you're SOL in being able to stay.

It just feels like at this point that Phoenix is just not going to work out, and it'll be moving to either Houston (they may like hockey more now because of their current weather) or Quebec City. After Seattle starts up, those two cities are next on the queue, with Kansas City being a wildcard I suppose.

Exactly.

Winning cures all. Case in point, the Panthers going to the cup final in their second season secured a strong fan base for the next 5-10 years. They just were never able to follow up consistently with any sort of winning, so fans never took them on.

I guarantee that Vegas is going to be a very strong franchise for decades simply because of how they broke into the league and set the fan expectation.

To quote Al Davis:

[1qqaaz]

People are saying the Arizona could move to Quebec rather than Houston if there is a suddenly need for a re-location.
I just don't think that would be a good idea.

Quebec is a very small city. It's also a very poor city. Here's a list of the total GDP (in billions of dollars, PPP adjusted) for a number of Canadian and American cities:
Houston: 483.2
Phoenix: 207.1
San Diego: 202.5
Portland: 158.5
Indianapolis: 113.6
Calgary: 97.9
Edmonton: 83.0
Salt Lake City: 73.8
Louisville: 62.40
Little Rock: 40.7 (fewer than 200,000 people)
Des Moines: 39.5
Quebec City: 33.4

Quebec also has higher taxes than any of these cities by a fairly large margin.
So you might say, but Quebecers love hockey. The problem is, they don’t. At least not really.

Percentage of Active NHL Players by Birth Province:
Ontario: 50.1%
Quebec: 12.4%
BC: 11.2%
Saskatchewan: 8.5%
Alberta: 7.0%
Manitoba: 6.0%
Nova Scotia: 4.8%

Total Population of Alberta + Saskatchewan + Manitoba: 7.056 million
Total Population of Quebec: 8.164 Million
Total Percentage of NHL Players from the Prairies: 21.5%
Total Percentage of NHL Players from Quebec: 12.4%

BC, despite having roughly half the population of Quebec, produces roughly the same amount of NHLers. Ontario has about 80% more people, but 400% more players.
Quebec sucks at hockey. It's the worst per capita after New Brunswick. This trend shows no sign of slowing.
I lived in Quebec City for a year, the city is a dump. Even Cleveland is nicer. I doubt any NHL player would want to live there.
Winnipeg is comparable to Quebec City in total GDP and population. But Winnipegers actually like hockey, speak English and pay slightly less in taxes.
I don’t see why any Owner would want to move to Quebec. Even for the short term.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

I don’t see why any Owner would want to move to Quebec. Even for the short term.

Same reason why there even is a team in Winnipeg right now, despite a undersized arena. Someone with deep pockets that really wants the team to be there.

It'll be purely for bringing a team back to Quebec City, rather than moving into a rich sports market.

Now I do think that Winnipeg is seriously going to have find a better arena with more seats and luxury suites to maximize revenue for the franchise if it's going to stay long term.

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by memphusk

Some trends never get old. They're the Cleveland Browns of the NHL.

I think it is more appropriate to call them the Edmonton Oilers south.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Same reason why there even is a team in Winnipeg right now, despite a undersized arena. Someone with deep pockets that really wants the team to be there.

It'll be purely for bringing a team back to Quebec City, rather than moving into a rich sports market.

Now I do think that Winnipeg is seriously going to have find a better arena with more seats and luxury suites to maximize revenue for the franchise if it's going to stay long term.

They can't add too many seats or they risk having too many nights where they don't sell out. If they have too many nights where they don't sell out then it is easier to get Jets tickets. If its easier to get Jets tickets then people don't jump at a Tuesday night game against Arizona or Buffalo because they might not get another chance this season.

Winnipeg has to be a balance between ticket scarcity, entertainment value, on ice product, and near zero nights of arena vacancy to survive. There were expansion plans for an additional 2,500 seats integrated into the original design so they could make the house bigger if they wanted to. I think its telling that arena expansion isn't mentioned much for a rink with a stated capacity of 15,015(?). They're really close to their sweet spot.

[nieuwy-89]

I love the Coyotes set-up in Glendale. Perfect place to fly in, catch a few hockey games, NFL game, and do some golfing. Great hotels, bars and restaurants and everything is in walking distance.

Sports fans in large cities will always need to travel a bit to get to the arena. I don’t get why the location is always cited as a big issue in Phoenix, compared to other large US cities.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by nieuwy-89

I love the Coyotes set-up in Glendale. Perfect place to fly in, catch a few hockey games, NFL game, and do some golfing. Great hotels, bars and restaurants and everything is in walking distance.

Sports fans in large cities will always need to travel a bit to get to the arena. I don’t get why the location is always cited as a big issue in Phoenix, compared to other large US cities.

Because driving to Glendale from Scottsdale or Mesa is nearly as time-consuming as flying in from out of town, that's why. Teams live and die on season ticket sales, and I guarantee you're not buying season tickets when you have to travel by air to see the games. Neither are very many of the people who would have to spend a couple of hours driving 41 times a year.

In other large U.S. cities, the arena isn't located in the outer suburbs on the poor side of town.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nieuwy-89

I love the Coyotes set-up in Glendale. Perfect place to fly in, catch a few hockey games, NFL game, and do some golfing. Great hotels, bars and restaurants and everything is in walking distance.

Sports fans in large cities will always need to travel a bit to get to the arena. I don’t get why the location is always cited as a big issue in Phoenix, compared to other large US cities.

How many games would you go to if the Flames new area was in Olds? That's the type of drive fans in the east valley of metro Phoenix face going to a Coyotes game. Remember that metro Phoenix is the size of 7 and a half metro Calgarys put together. It is a huge city, and as a result location of shared services is crucial to success of those entities. If there is one thing you can count on in Metro Phoenix, it is municipal governments finding ways to screw things up, especially when it comes to competing with each other for precious resources. Cooperation rarely happens and the arena and stadium are perfect examples of that.

[Erick Estrada]

Quebec City will never get another NHL team. The NHL is better off playing in a US market like Phoenix for the TV exposure alone.

[ResAlien]

Wait a second I love crapping on Arizona as much as the next guy but it’s a half hour drive from Scottsdale to Glendale, are we really pretending it’s undertaking a trek on the Oregon Trail to get to a game? That really makes that big a difference huh?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Wait a second I love crapping on Arizona as much as the next guy but it’s a half hour drive from Scottsdale to Glendale, are we really pretending it’s undertaking a trek on the Oregon Trail to get to a game? That really makes that big a difference huh?

I think that the issue is there is no transit to get there, and no convenient way. So sure, it might take the same amount of time for me to get to the Saddledome, but if the Saddledome was in Airdrie and the only way there was driving it would make things difficult for a lot of fans for various reasons.

[calumniate]

We'll probably get some more news on Monday?

[Toonage]

And the T-Mobile Center sits there in Kansas City, a good sports town, history of hockey, rivalry ready with the Blues. Small TV market I suppose, but come on.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Wait a second I love crapping on Arizona as much as the next guy but it’s a half hour drive from Scottsdale to Glendale, are we really pretending it’s undertaking a trek on the Oregon Trail to get to a game? That really makes that big a difference huh?

Try taking the 10 back home, where there is almost a crash and the busiest highway in Arizona. You’re not just crossing some no name town when going from Scottsdale to Glendale, you’re going right through the heart of Phoenix.

It’s not a problem to drive there, but who is going to be a STH to something that isn’t even on the top of their radar. The Coyotes will always be behind the D-Backs, the Cardinals, and the Suns in terms of popularity.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by nieuwy-89

Sports fans in large cities will always need to travel a bit to get to the arena. I don’t get why the location is always cited as a big issue in Phoenix, compared to other large US cities.

Kanata and Ottawa say Hi!