Flames upcoming free agent defensemen: Who stays, who goes?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by New Era

You need a blend of talent on the blueline. You can't just give positions up on the back end until a player proves he's ready to step in. Inexperienced bluelines almost always guarantee missed playoffs. There is a reason why veterans get snapped up at the trade deadline, experience matters. I would prefer to have five defensemen on the team with more than a couple seasons under their belts. If the kids step up and show they are capable, you have an attractive commodity you can move. You can never have too many defensemen, especially defensemen than have proven they can be effective at the NHL level. Kylington is the only defenseman we have that we can honestly say is ready to step in and play a regular shift. Valimaki is coming back from a rebuilt knee, so we have no idea where he stands. Yelesin played four games in the NHL last season and looked every bit of that. You don't win many games with a blueline that is comprised on players with no experience. You can sit there and say you would be happy watching Yelesin and company getting walked multiple times a game, but as the losses pile up I suspect you quickly change your tune and demand change.

We don't agree often, but we agree here!

Giordano, Andersson, Hanifin as vets is a good start, and I like Valimaki's chances of recovering, while I'm not as high on Kylington. But that's four guys on the left side which means you have defenseman 1, 2, 4, 6 and 7.

You still need three and five.

That aint coming from Stockton.

Three is pricey and five is reasonable, and the players willing to fit into those two holes come back. I'm guessing one of Brodie/Hamonic and Gustafsson.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by MrMike

I really liked Forbort. I hope he replaces Stone as our 6-7. I found he was better than Hamonic and Stone combined.

If Brodie walks I would try to retain Gustafsson for a decent price as I think he really upgrades our offence.

I liked Forbort too, but I feel like this is his chance to get paid really well, something Calgary most likely cannot afford. Would much rather have Brodie or Gustafsson back.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Bingo

We don't agree often, but we agree here!



Giordano, Andersson, Hanifin as vets is a good start, and I like Valimaki's chances of recovering, while I'm not as high on Kylington. But that's four guys on the left side which means you have defenseman 1, 2, 4, 6 and 7.



You still need three and five.



That aint coming from Stockton.



Three is pricey and five is reasonable, and the players willing to fit into those two holes come back. I'm guessing one of Brodie/Hamonic and Gustafsson.

We just need Brodie back. That solves everything. No need for a hamonic as a 5 when you can add another 2 in Brodie. Gus is a 5/6 so is Forbort. I think you can let all three of hamonic, gus, forbort go without blinking. If no Brodie, try hard for vatanen. Krug and Barrie will be too expensive. Vatanen, while not as good as Brodie, is a good 4. Still think we'd be kind of boned on a vatanen Brodie exchange but there arent a ton of viable options. The last thing we need is a Tyler Myers type deal.

1 gio
2 brodie
2/3 andersson
4 Hanifin
6 valimaki
7 kylington
8 yelesin

Don't block Yelesin and Kylington with older, declining marginal upgrades. The lack of a true 5 is not the difference between winning and losing. Valimaki very well may be a 4 by the 20 game mark.

Brodie is key to our season next year. Adding some 5s won't help replace a 2. There are no other 2s I don't think on the market other than Krug. Barrie is overrated. Then there's Pietrangelo, he should almost be the target over Hall of you can get him to sign 5 years. Might impact wins and loses more.

[Cobra]

When should we question Brad on his decision to trade a 1st rounder and 2 second rounders for Hamonic.
Then we just let him walk for nothing?
Asset management at its finest?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Cobra

When should we question Brad on his decision to trade a 1st rounder and 2 second rounders for Hamonic.
Then we just let him walk for nothing?
Asset management at its finest?

Sunk cost. Let's not double down.

That trade was incredibly damaging though. Imagine if we had a future top 3 of Dobson, Valimaki and Andersson? Not to mention the 2nds.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Cobra

When should we question Brad on his decision to trade a 1st rounder and 2 second rounders for Hamonic.
Then we just let him walk for nothing?
Asset management at its finest?

That's the sunk cost fallacy though. Should we sign him simply because of the assets we've already invested? If he's not a fit long term with this team, then don't re-sign him. If he is, then go for it.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

We just need Brodie back. That solves everything. No need for a hamonic as a 5 when you can add another 2 in Brodie. Gus is a 5/6 so is Forbort. I think you can let all three of hamonic, gus, forbort go without blinking. If no Brodie, try hard for vatanen. Krug and Barrie will be too expensive. Vatanen, while not as good as Brodie, is a good 4. Still think we'd be kind of boned on a vatanen Brodie exchange but there arent a ton of viable options. The last thing we need is a Tyler Myers type deal.

1 gio
2 brodie
2/3 andersson
4 Hanifin
6 valimaki
7 kylington
8 yelesin

Don't block Yelesin and Kylington with older, declining marginal upgrades. The lack of a true 5 is not the difference between winning and losing. Valimaki very well may be a 4 by the 20 game mark.

Brodie is key to our season next year. Adding some 5s won't help replace a 2. There are no other 2s I don't think on the market other than Krug. Barrie is overrated. Then there's Pietrangelo, he should almost be the target over Hall of you can get him to sign 5 years. Might impact wins and loses more.

sure but your list is

left
left but plays right
right
left
left
left
right

At least Gustafsson likes the right side.

If one of Valimaki or Kylington can play the opposite side comfortably then maybe you can just bring back Brodie. But I don't see Kylington playing his own side all that comfortably yet, and Valimaki missed a season and a half with injury.

You can't risk that.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Bingo

sure but your list is

left
left but plays right
right
left
left
left
right

At least Gustafsson likes the right side.

If one of Valimaki or Kylington can play the opposite side comfortably then maybe you can just bring back Brodie. But I don't see Kylington playing his own side all that comfortably yet, and Valimaki missed a season and a half with injury.

You can't risk that.

My way at least it matches the forwards Soviet red army style all LH shots, can't go wrong.

Seriously tough i hadn't totally considered that. I don't want to get caught up in Babcocking the blueline though. Would rather get the talent and work it out later than to secure lesser, proper handed dmen for slotting issues. Trade Hanifin for a RH guy if you need to. Probably easier said than done I guess. I read Gus really wants to go back to Chicago though so it may be moot anyway.

[transplant99]

See, I dont think OK has a long future in Cgy in the eyes of management.

He was given a lengthy trial this past year (and a decent one the year before) but once the deadline rolled around they added 2 LS guys that were always going to play ahead of him....putting him 5th on the depth chart for left side guys. And this was at a time when there were injuries on the RIGHT side, yet 2 LH dmen were the "adds" for a playoff run.

So looking forward I would guess that BT has both Forbort and Gustaffson as guys to play here ahead of OK....Gio and Hanifin are locked in at 1@2 on that side with (Im guessing) Forbort or Gustaffson probably in at that 3 position and perhaps the other one as the 7th depending on cost.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by transplant99

See, I dont think OK has a long future in Cgy in the eyes of management.

He was given a lengthy trial this past year (and a decent one the year before) but once the deadline rolled around they added 2 LS guys that were always going to play ahead of him....putting him 5th on the depth chart for left side guys. And this was at a time when there were injuries on the RIGHT side, yet 2 LH dmen were the "adds" for a playoff run.

So looking forward I would guess that BT has both Forbort and Gustaffson as guys to play here ahead of OK....Gio and Hanifin are locked in at 1@2 on that side with (Im guessing) Forbort or Gustaffson probably in at that 3 position and perhaps the other one as the 7th depending on cost.

Gus and Forbort will be too much money. If they are willing to accept 1 year 1-1.5m deals then sure. Not sure why management doesn't like Kylington. He seems like a perfectly cromulent 6/7. They get picky over Kylington and his developing game but Stone is ok? Grossman worth a shot? Jyrki Jokkipaka? Diaz? Potter? Nakladal? Matt Bartkowski? BT collects junk dmen like it's going out of style but can't see what he has right in front of him.

Seems to me they are going to Kulak Kylington and get a guy like the ones I mentioned if history is any indication. Kylington can handle 10 minutes 50 games a year. No need to bring in some older vet. I still have Bartkowski induced nightmares.

[Sylvanfan]

One constant is that the most proven way to get value is to hold off on signing UFA's until the last minute and get guys at the last minute before or during training camp. So I would be willing to hold out to the end and see what you can get for vets on one year deals.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

One constant is that the most proven way to get value is to hold off on signing UFA's until the last minute and get guys at the last minute before or during training camp. So I would be willing to hold out to the end and see what you can get for vets on one year deals.

No way that BT can wait til the end though when he will only have 3 vet D guys under contract that includes a 23 year old Hanifin who was uneven last year and 23 year old Rasmus who is still developing as well.

He will have to target at least 2 guys for whenever UFA starts or risk getting left at the alter...unless he gets them in trades beforehand.

Thats why im guessing one of, if not both, Gustaffson/Forbort are back along with Hamonic.

[Roof-Daddy]

I think Gustufsson will go back to Chicago.

Forbort I could see re-signing. Hopefully on a sweet little 1 year show me contract given he only played 20 games last season and with the probable flat cap and all that.

$1.5 million on a 1 year deal could end up being a massive bargain and would give the Flames some depth on LHD and help bring Valimaki along gradually.

[SeanCharles]

Taking stock of our group, I’m not sure it makes a ton of sense to bring Brodie back..

Gio - Current #1 D, all signs point to having many miles left in the tank as a top 4 dman he just needs his workload to be managed, meaning less special teams time.

Andersson - Emerging top 4 dman who is our only proven RH shot dman under contract next season. He is ready for top 4 ice time.

Hanifin - Top 4 dman with plenty of experience and is younger than Andersson so he still has a lot of potential to grow. He needs top 4 ice time.

Valimaki - Top prospect (if you consider him that) who has struggled with injuries the last two years but has the potential to be a #1 dman. When he finally got on the ice in the playoffs last year he looked poised, confident and was probably our best dman in the games he played. He will need to be managed carefully but the sky is the limit for him and so long as he is healthy I don’t see how he doesn’t push for more ice time immediately next season. I know everyone is worried about his injuries but I don’t see it being a problem. We had the same worry about Backlund early in his career.

Kylington - I don’t know where he stands within the organization. I like him and want to see him get more looks on the PP as I think he has a lot of untapped offensive potential. Either way he is a #5-7 option for us next season and I think if you want to develop his game he needs ice time. He is waiver eligible so he should be on the bottom pairing next season.

Yelesin, Mackey, Poolman, Lerby and Kinnvall (Europe next yr) need more developmental time and aren’t seemingly viable options at this time. Yelesin and Mackey might make a case to play some games here and there but they likely aren’t ready to be regulars.

So we have 5 guys who have shown they can play in the NHL regularly to fill out our top 7 and a bunch of guys who will need some more time so for all intents and purposes shouldn’t be relied upon for regular mins next season. Like I said some of these guys could make noise next yr but it’s not something we should bank on at this time.

Out of those 5, 4 are LH shots.

Out of those 5, 3 are players I would classify as smooth skating, puck distributors.

Out of those 5, 2 are gritty, harder nosed players.

Out of those 5, I would say 4 will be good enough to play in the top 4 next season.

IMO it will be all be dependant on how things shake out when NHL resumes but if Valimaki is fully recovered and shows such in practice why would we limit him next season?

I think, barring any trades, our starting top 4 should include Gio, Andersson and Hanifin next year. This shouldn’t be a shock to anyone as Andersson has proven he is ready and Gio and Hanifin were staples in our top 4 the last 2 seasons.

Valimaki should be eased back into things and start on the bottom pairing. By the time the puck drops on next season in might already have been a full year and half since he injured his knee. He will be ready to play.

Given the fact he is young and you don’t want to rush him it would be the prudent thing to re-sign or acquire another top 4 capable guy who you can move up and down the lineup and can provide some relief for Gio on special teams - specifically the PK as those minutes are much harder to play.

Is the player we want to bring back another left shot making us only have 1 RH option in the top 6?

Is the player we want to bring back another smooth skating, puck mover who isn’t overly difficult physically to play against?

Is the player we want to bring back a player who has been on a rollercoaster over the last few years exhibiting both excellent and frustrating play in that time?

To me the logical option to fill out the group is a bigger, gritty, RHed PK minute muncher.

I’ve been watching most, if not all, of the games since I can remember and I will tell you I like both Hamonic and Brodie. I don’t think either is as bad as they have been made out to be at certain times in their tenures here and see value in both.

But when I look at the makeup of the group and the path it is headed, I don’t see Brodie as the right guy to bring back.

Maybe Hamonic isn’t the right guy either but IMO Brodie gets too much credit when playing with Gio while Hamonic gets too much flack when, at least what I notice, Hanifin is the player putting the pairing in situations that make us vulnerable in the defensive zone.

Gio
Andersson
Hanifin
Valimaki
Kylington
Hamonic

These are the top 6 guys I think should be here next season.

Maybe Kylington or Hanifin are used as tradebait and it changes everything but IMO Hamonic offers more of what we need given the current makeup of the group - big, gritty, RHed, can play up and down lineup, kills penalties.

[Poe969]

So your saying Hanafin is a top 4 guy but he's the reason Hamonic looked bad?

[Sandman]

Mackey will be a regular on the big team at some point next season, and if I recall correctly, many pundits and scouts say the same.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Poe969

So your saying Hanafin is a top 4 guy but he's the reason Hamonic looked bad?

Hanifin's growing pains were amplified by Hamonic's poor play and vice versa. Never a good idea to pair a young, would-be top 4 guy with someone worse than him. Hanifin should've been with Andersson much sooner than he was. It took an injury to force Ward's hand but he should've been deploying that pairing for most of the season since he's actually been here to personally witness that Hamonic is not a top 4 guy anymore. He hasn't been a positive force on the ice since he was an islander. Maybe it would be different if he was 3rd pair but they were too stubborn to try. Sometimes I thought I was taking crazy pills watching them force the issue over and over, game after game.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Poe969

So your saying Hanafin is a top 4 guy but he's the reason Hamonic looked bad?

Haha I don’t think they played well together this year is all I’m saying. I don’t think many would dispute that.

Hanifin looked better with Andersson and I guess the obvious thing would be to assume that’s cause Hamonic dragged him down but I don’t see it that way.

I think it’s more likely a chemistry issue.. It seems Hanifin plays better with a more mobile partner.

[dammage79]

Say it with me kids....

Han-i-fin

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Sandman

Mackey will be a regular on the big team at some point next season, and if I recall correctly, many pundits and scouts say the same.

That’s great news and gives us even more LHS options.

Makes me think signing a 30yo LS dman, who has been up and down the last few years, to a multi-year $4-5mill dollar extension makes even less sense.

Gio
Hanifin
Valimaki
Kylington
Mackey

I guess if we do it Seattle will take a long look at picking him.. would Brodie sign without any assurances?