3 years ago we all said a 5 year rebuild would be fine.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Corral

Well you and I have a different view of what is 'successful' if the Capitals and Blues are on that list for you. Agreed on the draft, and as everyone knows we already have multiple top 5 ish picks in our lineup.

If you don't think the Caps and Blues have been successful for the last 4-5 seasons, then yes, we have a different idea of what success means.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I'm not sure they have been doing all these things well. I don't really follow the Res Wings that closely but if they were, wouldnt it mean their prospect base was better?

They have a good group of young players for a team that has drafted in their position. Larkin, Mantha, and Sheahan are good finds at where they were drafted. But where you draft is the single most important element in building through the draft. And this is the overall draft position of the first picks the Wings have made in each of the last 12 years:

19
41
27
30
32
21
35
49
20
15
19
20

Even the best drafting team in the league (which the Wings may be) is not going to draft an elite core in those spots. Players like Malkin and Doughty and Kane just don't fall into your lap at the 20th pick.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Or does being bad and getting high draft picks trump everything else? If so let's stop making fun of the Oilers.

People make fun of the Oilers because even with a bunch of 1st OA picks they had a terrible team. It wasn't until they hit the homerun/lottery with McDavid that they turned things around.

Ask Leafs fans how bad they feel about enduring a rebuild.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Spinach

Boston in 2011 (as well as making the finals in '13) didn't have a homegrown 1st or 2nd draftee. But they had made a colossal (literally) free-agent signing in Chara, and getting franchise players for nothing isn't a dependable way to build a contender. Hence your point stands.

Tyler Seguin won the Cup with Bruins in 2011, though in a very limited role.

But yes, that was pretty much all on the big man.

[J79]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I'm assuming you aren't a season ticket holder?

If you think any season ticket holder signed up for 5 years of garbage hockey you are out of your mind

Yikes.

I'm not sure if I should be mad or just, let's say, astonished by your post.
Either way, it's one of the most stupid things I've ever read.

I'm assuming you are in fact a season ticket holder?
Did someone forced you to be a STH? Did the Flames organization promised you a Stanley Cup when you signed up?

I'm also assuming you're not living in a country where you have to get up at 3 or 4 a.m. to watch a Flames game... on television or internet. And that's only for the last couple of years.
Prior to that you could only listen to the games and watch a 4 minute higlight clip of the game on the internet.

I'm also assuming you never lost a job because you thought it was more important to listen to Peter Maher in the middle of the night during the '04 cup run, than actually be fit for work.

I'm also assuming you never had to end a relationship because the lady thought the Calgary Flames where more important to you than she was.
(them, she had a smokin' hot body... such a bitch though)

I'm also assuming you never had to cancel you first ever trip to Calgary because of a NHL lockout.... knowing full well it was probably the last chance to be able to see Kipper and Iggy play for the Flames.

I never signed up for garbage hockey either when I, radonmly, chose to support the Calgary Flames almost 23 years ago, but never ever did I blame the Flames for the choices I made.

Man, I must be real tough being a Calgary Flames season ticket holder!

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Monahan... is what he is, which is goals and little else

lol

[Sylvanfan]

Wouldn't we technically be in our 4th full season of the committed "rebuild"? Year one was 2013-2014 with Hartley coaching. Year 2 when they made the playoffs. Year three being last year, and this being year 4. I guess we are at 4 years since the team begrudgingly realized how bad they were, and had to sell off Iginla, while putting Bouwmeister up for sale on the discount rack.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

People make fun of the Oilers because even with a bunch of 1st OA picks they had a terrible team. It wasn't until they hit the homerun/lottery with McDavid that they turned things around.

Ask Leafs fans how bad they feel about enduring a rebuild.

Looking at the Oilers for a second, with their #1 draft picks, for the most part they didn't make any bad selections (Yakupov notwithstanding as he was expected to go at the top of a very weak draft class). The problem is that sucking at the wrong times and not being able to draft outside of the first round is what keeps bad teams bad. For every example of the Hawks, there is the Islanders or the Panthers, who have been pretty dreadful for a long time. The Hawks have been successful for a long time because they have been a great drafting team that has made the hard trades at the right time to successfully complement the core. They had the base elite core with Kane, Toews and Keith and have been able to surround them with talent through the draft. But make no mistake if you subtracted two of those players, they don't win a cup and are just an average team.

It requires elite level talent, good drafting, good management, and luck. The Flames are close in my view; but still need time and luck with some of their draft picks reaching their potential or exceeding expectations. Before looking at coaching in the big leagues I would look at coaching at the AHL level and the major pro scouting

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Wouldn't we technically be in our 4th full season of the committed "rebuild"? Year one was 2013-2014 with Hartley coaching. Year 2 when they made the playoffs. Year three being last year, and this being year 4. I guess we are at 4 years since the team begrudgingly realized how bad they were, and had to sell off Iginla, while putting Bouwmeister up for sale on the discount rack.

In my opinion any team engaged in a "rebuild" is looking at 5 years out of the playoffs before they are firmly back in them consistently. Once you have a team that has made the playoffs say 3 years in a row or 3/4 years the "rebuild" portion is basically over. More or less the core of the roster is set and from there it is about maximizing your chances year over year by adding and subtracting support pieces, goaltending and coaching.

The flames will probably be in that threshold for consistency in making the playoffs next season should they stay the course and it will be largely up to th group already assembled to get it done.

The flames have been remarkably lucky in my opinion in the quality of players they have been able to pick in the last 4 years which has helped speed things up, but unlike most contenders they will probably have to be extra ruthless when it comes to asset management because they are still so behind other organizations when it comes to prospects.

A bottom 5 finish this year could really help in solidifying the core group for next year.

[Itse]

(Eh, I started to make a short comment and it kind of got out of hand and slightly off topic. Sorry. Hope at least somebody bothers to read it anyway.)

I agree with the people who feel that hockey has had much of the emotion sucked out of it, but I don't think it has much to do with physicality, and is simply the combined effect of the trade market drying up and guaranteed contracts.

It used to be that players on losing teams were constantly under the threat of trades, and players generally hate being traded. That was something the GM and the coach could use as the ultimate hammer to smack some effort into players. Now Treliving is more in risk of losing his job than any player on the roster. Pretty easy for complacency to set in.

There's also less to play for without trades. Trade deadline used to be a pretty crazy time, and guys in situations like Wideman is in now essentially knew they were going to get traded, only question was where. That can be a distraction for a player, but also motivation. Even on a bad team, if you stood out in a good way, a contender might pick you up for a run at the cup. Even 4th liners like Bouma and Hathaway were moved regurarly.

Trades also made it possible for teams to get significantly better midseason. So maybe the team you're supposed to be carrying isn't THAT hot, but if you drag your team to a position where you're a buyer, you could get some better players around you. Of course most of the time it didn't make that much of a difference, but it was something to think look forward to.

To sum up, the possibility of trades meant Stuff Could Happen. The 82 game season didn't use to be feel this long. Without roster changes, it's really pretty much just a grind.

Now we're debating whether or not ANYONE gets moved at or before trade deadline. That's 82 games from start to finish with essentially the same roster, playing mostly against other non-changing rosters.

Bring up Jankowski and fire Gulutzan. That's what we're talking about because that's pretty much the extent of what can still happen this season, at least before the playoffs come around.

It also used to be much easier to fool yourself into thinking your team could make a splash in the playoffs, when the teams actually changed during the season. Now, you need some really serious flame-coloured glasses to think the Flames could make it further than round 2 at the very best. Kind of hard to get excited about that.

In this light, I feel like the game would be better off without guaranteed contracts. Not sure how big of a difference it would make, but at least it would help give the coaches and GM's some power again, and give the teams more options for making moves.

For fans, these days of waiting for those overpriced multiyear contracts to run out and waiting for your 4-5 key prospects to grow up because it's really the only significant change likely to happen...

Watching a rebuild happen is too much like watching the grass grow.

[vicarious]

Kenny Agostino leads the AHL in scoring this season

[FeyWest]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'm glad the Flames got Hamilton with a bunch of picks, but they can't keep doing that if they want to be successful.

I agree with all of what you have stated although in this statement here, I don't have an issue trading picks away for assets like Dougie that are young, established players yet to reach their prime years. In essence you saved a few years of potential drafting/developing into a young up and comer. But ultimately I do agree these don't happen often so more times than not I'd like to keep them and hopefully score on guys like Kylington, Anderson, and Fox..... potentially at this point.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by vicarious

Kenny Agostino leads the AHL in scoring this season

Sweet!!! Call him up!!!... oh wait..

[Corral]

Originally Posted by VilleN

How are the Capitals and Blues not on that list? It is hard to win the cup. The Penguins only did it once in their prime post rebuild years. And they have Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Fleury. If the Flames end up being in the top 5 regular season teams, and perennial playoff contenders, then that is success... the cup, although the ultimate goal, isn't guaranteed no matter how well you manage your team. There is a lot of luck involved.

regular season success for sure with the Caps, but that team chokes big time when it counts. Reminds me of another franchise. St Louis - meh - sure they are good but success there means beating their archrivals in Chicago.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

How do you figure? This just flat out shows you had way to high of expectations on how quickly draft picks should become NHL ready IMO. If anything, our top draft picks from the past 5 years have progressed quicker then we should have expected.

You should certainly develop a few sub top 10 picks quicker than 5 years every once and while unless you're drafting goalies with every pick. Somehow other teams manage to do it.

Top picks (let's say top 10) shouldn't even enter the equation when discussing development. Generally those guys are almost all ready for a shot within a year or two in today's NHL. Even some late first rounders have had a legitimate sniff of action within 3 years of drafting these days.

[Mister Yamoto]

Lately the Flames have been really good at sewering a season and drafting an NHL ready player top 10. But drafting players, developing them in the AHL, and then graduating them into key roles on the big club ........ not so much. Brodie and Backlund are exceptions.

The last time the Flames drafted an impact in the second round Brian Mulroney was our PM. (Nieuwendyk)

[Steve Bozek]

Plenty of blame to spread around for this mess.

Basically, despite Corsi, or whatever, the team is not as good as last year on several levels. The "stars" (Giordano, Brodie) are not playing as well. The young key players (Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett), who were expected to get better with age, have regressed. We hoped the departures were being replaced with better players, but I would argue the replacements are worse: Hudler (even though he was injured) is miles better than Chiaisson or Versteeg. Last year's Joe Colborne was also way better than Chiaisson, and Jones was as good as or better than Brouwer. Stajan's about the same, Ferland seems to be inconsistent and overall, no better than last year.The improvement in Backlund and Frolik, and the addition of Tkachuk doesn't make up for the disappointing performance of the other forwards except for Hathaway.

On defence, Wideman's worse than last seasn's Wideman, Russell was significantly better than Jokkipaka or Kulak. I like Engelland, but I liked him as much last year. The only improvement there is Hamilton.

The predicted improvement in goal didn't really materialize. We replaced Hiller with someone only marginally better.I like Johnson as a backup, but I'd argue that the pre-injury Ramo was as good or better.

Coaching and management haven't performed as well as expected either. The regression of the young players may have something to do with the coach, but the replacements engineered by the GM have failed to impress.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

In my opinion any team engaged in a "rebuild" is looking at 5 years out of the playoffs before they are firmly back in them consistently. Once you have a team that has made the playoffs say 3 years in a row or 3/4 years the "rebuild" portion is basically over. More or less the core of the roster is set and from there it is about maximizing your chances year over year by adding and subtracting support pieces, goaltending and coaching.

The flames will probably be in that threshold for consistency in making the playoffs next season should they stay the course and it will be largely up to th group already assembled to get it done.

The flames have been remarkably lucky in my opinion in the quality of players they have been able to pick in the last 4 years which has helped speed things up, but unlike most contenders they will probably have to be extra ruthless when it comes to asset management because they are still so behind other organizations when it comes to prospects.

A bottom 5 finish this year could really help in solidifying the core group for next year.

I think the Flames have generally kept a pretty consistent philosophy in the past 4 years in terms of how they've made trades. They have sold of veterans on expiring contracts for additional draft picks. So since 2013 they have went into the draft with at least 3 selections in the first two rounds.

In 2015 they did trade 3 of the 4 picks they had, but it was to acquire an established 21 year old player, in a draft where they were picking in the middle of the first round. So in that regard moving the second round picks to move up for a better first round player wasn't an awful move, and there was a longer term view point with the player they acquired.

They did gamble a good 2nd from last years draft on Elliot which obviously hasn't worked.

What will need to happen here for the team to eventually come out of it's current state is that players drafted outside the top pick from these drafts need to start forcing their way onto the roster in the next two seasons.

I agree that another better player at the top of this draft probably does need to materialize for the longer term success of this team.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by J79

Yikes.

I'm not sure if I should be mad or just, let's say, astonished by your post.
Either way, it's one of the most stupid things I've ever read.

I'm assuming you are in fact a season ticket holder?
Did someone forced you to be a STH? Did the Flames organization promised you a Stanley Cup when you signed up?

I'm also assuming you're not living in a country where you have to get up at 3 or 4 a.m. to watch a Flames game... on television or internet. And that's only for the last couple of years.
Prior to that you could only listen to the games and watch a 4 minute higlight clip of the game on the internet.

I'm also assuming you never lost a job because you thought it was more important to listen to Peter Maher in the middle of the night during the '04 cup run, than actually be fit for work.

I'm also assuming you never had to end a relationship because the lady thought the Calgary Flames where more important to you than she was.
(them, she had a smokin' hot body... such a bitch though)

I'm also assuming you never had to cancel you first ever trip to Calgary because of a NHL lockout.... knowing full well it was probably the last chance to be able to see Kipper and Iggy play for the Flames.

I never signed up for garbage hockey either when I, radonmly, chose to support the Calgary Flames almost 23 years ago, but never ever did I blame the Flames for the choices I made.

Man, I must be real tough being a Calgary Flames season ticket holder!

Beauty post. Flames fan through and through. If the rebuild takes longer than expected so be it, we may of peaked early but this is clearly the dark days that really haven't happened yet. First year of the rebuild people we were pretty satisfied watching Monahan score 20 goals, second year we all know what happened. Third year was exactly where we were supposed to be, and now 4th year we have entered what may be some dark days ahead. But even if these are the dark days we all will support this team and bitching about having season tickets is ridiculous considering many fans have to make sacrifices to just watch the games. It sucks to suck but will be great when this team turns the corner. One day it will happen.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I think the Flames have generally kept a pretty consistent philosophy in the past 4 years in terms of how they've made trades. They have sold of veterans on expiring contracts for additional draft picks. So since 2013 they have went into the draft with at least 3 selections in the first two rounds.

In 2015 they did trade 3 of the 4 picks they had, but it was to acquire an established 21 year old player, in a draft where they were picking in the middle of the first round. So in that regard moving the second round picks to move up for a better first round player wasn't an awful move, and there was a longer term view point with the player they acquired.

They did gamble a good 2nd from last years draft on Elliot which obviously hasn't worked.

What will need to happen here for the team to eventually come out of it's current state is that players drafted outside the top pick from these drafts need to start forcing their way onto the roster in the next two seasons.

I agree that another better player at the top of this draft probably does need to materialize for the longer term success of this team.

That's what this team will need. Another high end prospect with the picks we've made since 2013 to start to come through. Our drafting seems to be much better and our prospect pool is not as pathetic as it was, if we get a couple big hits like Kylington or Andersson or maybe both turning into legit players would be huge for this team along with Gillies or any goalie prospect and Jankowski turning out to be worth the wait. Organizational depth is something this team has always struggled with but I do think they are improving with better drafts every year imo.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Lately the Flames have been really good at sewering a season and drafting an NHL ready player top 10. But drafting players, developing them in the AHL, and then graduating them into key roles on the big club ........ not so much. Brodie and Backlund are exceptions.

The last time the Flames drafted an impact in the second round Brian Mulroney was our PM. (Nieuwendyk)

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by FeyWest

I agree with all of what you have stated although in this statement here, I don't have an issue trading picks away for assets like Dougie that are young, established players yet to reach their prime years. In essence you saved a few years of potential drafting/developing into a young up and comer. But ultimately I do agree these don't happen often so more times than not I'd like to keep them and hopefully score on guys like Kylington, Anderson, and Fox..... potentially at this point.

Yep, the Flames paid with that development time with picks and the squeaky new contract they handed Hamilton.

In today's cap era that in and of itself is a big issue. Not only do teams need their best, highest paid players to produce at their cap hit or above, but they also rely on entry level contracts to vastly outpace their cap hits.

The Flames, once they have consistently begun making the playoffs with this core group, will still have to graduate 1-4 players per year into the lineup from their own system if they want to remain competitive, and some of these guys are going to have to be able to play at least spot duty in key roles.

The Flames will need one of Kylington, Anderson, Fox or Hickey to walk onto the roster on their entry level or otherwise exceptionally low cap hit AS WELL as drafting more players that have a shot at the lineup as well.

It's a double whammy trading for good young players. You will always pay a premium for the development time, and you will almost always have to pay a premium in terms of contracts.

Doing both of those things consistently will erode your prospect base quickly and have you under performing compared to the rest of the league that has guys contributing on their entry level deals that you (the flames) are getting from their 4-6 million dollar players.