Anyone see Kanye West

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by InTheSlot@Sep 3 2005, 03:22 PM
It's been nice discussing with you though, and I appreciate you listening to my opinion without flame.

Funny of you to say that, when this is what you write of other people's opinions:

-Hey, you should probably keep your comments to yourself.
-Get real
-Your outlook on this situation is baffling.
-That's a crock of shinguard.
-Don't gimme any garbage
-Gimme a break, that's completely ridiculous
-Man, some of you guys are nuts.

All quoted from this thread, or the Bush blows it thread.

[InTheSlot]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates+Sep 3 2005, 03:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Winsor_Pilates @ Sep 3 2005, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-InTheSlot@Sep 3 2005, 03:22 PM
It's been nice discussing with you though, and I appreciate you listening to my opinion without flame.

Funny of you to say that, when this is what you write of other people's opinions:

-Hey, you should probably keep your comments to yourself.
-Get real
-Your outlook on this situation is baffling.
-That's a crock of shinguard.
-Don't gimme any garbage
-Gimme a break, that's completely ridiculous
-Man, some of you guys are nuts.

All quoted from this thread, or the Bush blows it thread. [/b][/quote]
The only reason I said "Hey, you should probably keep your comments to yourself." was because the person I quoted as acting like his home state of Virginia was the only Southern state in the U.S. and that they speak on behalf of the rest of us. Basically he was giving of the impression that, whatever happens in his state must happen in the rest of the U.S. (or at least the Soutern states), which as we all know is not true.


As for my other remarks, I don't consider what I said to be of "flaming" nature, but rather just my way of disagreeing. I'm sorry if you or anyone else was offended, that was definitely not my intention.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Hakan@Sep 3 2005, 10:45 AM
Can you explain that statement Snakeeye?

Certantly. The other poster was insinuating that the response to the disaster in NOLA would have been considerably better if the majority of the trapped people were white. An accusation that racism played a significant role in the speed of the response.

The implied statement is that those in power are racists. The further implication is that those in power are white, as there is no reason to expect that black leaders would be racist against blacks.

The accusation that the response was slow because of racism is being made based on the presumed skin colour of those in charge only.

Would you not agree that judging a person, or making accusations based only on skin colour is racist?

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Snakeeye+Sep 3 2005, 10:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snakeeye @ Sep 3 2005, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Hakan@Sep 3 2005, 10:45 AM
Can you explain that statement Snakeeye?

Certantly. The other poster was insinuating that the response to the disaster in NOLA would have been considerably better if the majority of the trapped people were white. An accusation that racism played a significant role in the speed of the response.

The implied statement is that those in power are racists. The further implication is that those in power are white, as there is no reason to expect that black leaders would be racist against blacks.

The accusation that the response was slow because of racism is being made based on the presumed skin colour of those in charge only.

Would you not agree that judging a person, or making accusations based only on skin colour is racist? [/b][/quote]
Its only about a month since the CN derailment at Wabamum Lake near Edmonton, where toxic chemicals were spilled into the lake and where the lateness and confusion of the response from CN Rail and provincial officials drew substantial criticism.

So far, to my knowledge, no resident of Lake Wabamum has accused the President of CN Rail or Premier Klein of racism.

They're passed at those people, and justifiably so, but sometimes a fata-up is just a fata-up.

Meanwhile, red neck Texas has taken in over 200,000 mostly black refugees and the white governor has said children will be taken into Texas schools without reservation.

Meanwhile, thousands of white Texas volunteers are working at places like the Houston Astrodome to provide shelter for blacks.

Meanwhile, in the early hours of the disaster, white helicopter pilots and crews were risking their lives rescuing people in difficult situations.

Just because a black man says its racism doesn't automatically make it so. . . . . its a statement that should be questioned and weighed against the facts in this instance. The author of the statement may in fact be offering a racist point of view himself. Not all racists are WASP's.

And why is the black mayor and mostly black civic council of mostly black New Orleans not being questioned more heavily about the lack of a proper local disaster plan that, in most communities, would have provided for the evacuation of at least the infirm and elderly on short notice? The Mayor this morning was crowing that "his" disaster plan got 80% of the people out of New Orleans when the reality is pretty much all of them drove themselves out when he yelled "RUN!!" There's no real evidence New Orleans had much of a detailed local disaster plan at all and that's why the poor, elderly and infirm were left behind.

It doesn't matter to me that the mayor and his council are black . . . . but they're just as accountable if not more so than the white FEMA officials who were late off the mark.

This is going to be very interesting to analyze when its all done, where the breakdowns occurred, because there will be plenty of both blacks and whites, Republicans and Democrats, past beauracrats and present ones, who will need to get their asses kicked.

Cowperson

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by Cowperson
Its only about a month since the CN derailment at Wabamum Lake near Edmonton, where toxic chemicals were spilled into the lake and where the lateness and confusion of the response from CN Rail and provincial officials drew substantial criticism.

So far, to my knowledge, no resident of Lake Wabamum has accused the President of CN Rail or Premier Klein of racism.

how can you compare this at all? Wabamum Lake isn't a community full of impoverished black people. What's going on in NO and Wabumum are far too different to compare.

Meanwhile, red neck Texas has taken in over 200,000 mostly black refugees and the white governor has said children will be taken into Texas schools without reservation.

Meanwhile, thousands of white Texas volunteers are working at places like the Houston Astrodome to provide shelter for blacks.

Meanwhile, in the early hours of the disaster, white helicopter pilots and crews were risking their lives rescuing people in difficult situations.

Just because a black man says its racism doesn't automatically make it so. . . . . its a statement that should be questioned and weighed against the facts in this instance. The author of the statement may in fact be offering a racist point of view himself. Not all racists are WASP's.

Kanye West said "George Bush doesn't care about black people." He didn't say that all of the white volunteers, white pilots, white governer and red neck Texans are racist. His comment implied that the efforts would have been faster and the media imagery would have been different if the victims were mostly white. how you have managed to bring all of these other white people into that argument is beyond me.

[Abstract]

"Who throws a tantrum like he is 2 years old, you gotta love it though somebody still speaks from his soul"

Thats lyrics from one of Kanye's songs talking about himself so its not like he doesnt know he doesnt run his mouth sometimes. I have no problem whatsoever with what he said, or when and where he said it. If thats what he thinks then he would be less of a man not to use his position to tell people what he thinks. I liked him as a rapper before this anyway but he's gone up in my opinion for this. Reading some script about the devastation etc loses its effect after a while. Seeing someone who is obviously shaken and agered by whats going on is always more likely to get a response.

[Muta]

Originally posted by Abstract@Sep 4 2005, 01:26 PM
I have no problem whatsoever with what he said, or when and where he said it. If thats what he thinks then he would be less of a man not to use his position to tell people what he thinks. I liked him as a rapper before this anyway but he's gone up in my opinion for this. Reading some script about the devastation etc loses its effect after a while. Seeing someone who is obviously shaken and agered by whats going on is always more likely to get a response.

You don't think, though, that by Mr. West putting his political viewpoints ahead of his commitment to the Red Cross, he inadvertently denied victims of Katrina much-needed aid through monetary donations?

If he is aware, like you said, that he does run his mouth sometimes, then why would he do that at the expense of the victims he was orignally trying to help?

To me, it's hard to see Kanye's actions as anything BUT selfish.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates+Sep 3 2005, 10:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Winsor_Pilates @ Sep 3 2005, 10:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-daaznfob@Sep 3 2005, 03:06 PM
Longer clip

Whats the diffrence?

Quoted for truth [/b][/quote]
Hilarious.

I saw BOTH of those pictures when they were published on the website and those are NOT the captions that accompanied them.

Pathetic.

[Abstract]

Originally posted by Muta+Sep 4 2005, 08:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Muta @ Sep 4 2005, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Abstract@Sep 4 2005, 01:26 PM
I have no problem whatsoever with what he said, or when and where he said it. If thats what he thinks then he would be less of a man not to use his position to tell people what he thinks. I liked him as a rapper before this anyway but he's gone up in my opinion for this. Reading some script about the devastation etc loses its effect after a while. Seeing someone who is obviously shaken and agered by whats going on is always more likely to get a response.

You don't think, though, that by Mr. West putting his political viewpoints ahead of his commitment to the Red Cross, he inadvertently denied victims of Katrina much-needed aid through monetary donations?

If he is aware, like you said, that he does run his mouth sometimes, then why would he do that at the expense of the victims he was orignally trying to help?

To me, it's hard to see Kanye's actions as anything BUT selfish. [/b][/quote]
Obviously i would want anyone to give whatever they can to the cause and i'm sure Kanye does too. Perhaps its naive of me but i find it hard to see someone being about to pledge money but then deciding not to on the basis of what a rapper says. He's only saying what millions of us are thinking and have said in some way or another to others.

Society today puts stock in celebrities and puts them in a position of power. Thats why Mike Myers et all were hosting this. If one of these celebrities uses the position they are put in to air their beliefs then i have no problem with that. I'd rather see they are human. What if a month down the line he does an interview and says he was unhappy with the relief effort after keeping quiet on the telethon. Would that not make him look hypocritical? He said what he thought and i cant fault him for that.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates+Sep 4 2005, 10:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Winsor_Pilates @ Sep 4 2005, 10:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson
Its only about a month since the CN derailment at Wabamum Lake near Edmonton, where toxic chemicals were spilled into the lake and where the lateness and confusion of the response from CN Rail and provincial officials drew substantial criticism.

So far, to my knowledge, no resident of Lake Wabamum has accused the President of CN Rail or Premier Klein of racism.

how can you compare this at all? Wabamum Lake isn't a community full of impoverished black people. What's going on in NO and Wabumum are far too different to compare.

Meanwhile, red neck Texas has taken in over 200,000 mostly black refugees and the white governor has said children will be taken into Texas schools without reservation.

Meanwhile, thousands of white Texas volunteers are working at places like the Houston Astrodome to provide shelter for blacks.

Meanwhile, in the early hours of the disaster, white helicopter pilots and crews were risking their lives rescuing people in difficult situations.

Just because a black man says its racism doesn't automatically make it so.# . . . . its a statement that should be questioned and weighed against the facts in this instance. The author of the statement may in fact be offering a racist point of view himself. Not all racists are WASP's.

Kanye West said "George Bush doesn't care about black people." He didn't say that all of the white volunteers, white pilots, white governer and red neck Texans are racist. His comment implied that the efforts would have been faster and the media imagery would have been different if the victims were mostly white. how you have managed to bring all of these other white people into that argument is beyond me. [/b][/quote]
In principle, it is the same.

As you were well aware in dodging the main point, there was no attempt to compare the gravity of the situations, merely pointing to the similar anger at an an apparently indifferent officialdom as a crisis spun out of control . . . but I noted one situation carried the extra burden of an accusation of racial bias and questioned why that would be.

As I stated above . . . . sometimes people just fata up, plain and simple.

If Lake Wabamum had been surrounded by cottages owned by blacks, or Chinese, or Japanese or this was a predominately black province and those cottages were owned by whites, then I wonder if race would have been a card played as well.

And for what purpose?

When opportunistic ghouls like Jesse Jackson pop their heads out of their holes in times like this, playing the race card each and every time, I can't help but think of the boy who cried wolf. There are obviously times when they are right . . . . but they're not right 100% of the time and therefore their assertions shouldn't be accepted as a fait accompli.

We all have an opinion but if West wants to blurt out stuff like that then he should be accountable for it and asked to back it up. Or apologize. Just like a public white personality in our PC world would have had to if he'd labelled a black a racist.

And while he's at it, Mr. West might tell us why the city of New Orleans run by a black mayor and a black cabinet had no credible local disaster plan for an event most knew would eventually come.

Kanye West said "George Bush doesn't care about black people." He didn't say that all of the white volunteers, white pilots, white governer and red neck Texans are racist. His comment implied that the efforts would have been faster and the media imagery would have been different if the victims were mostly white. how you have managed to bring all of these other white people into that argument is beyond me.

Well, that would be no surprise to anyone given the confused nature of your response.

Perhaps we should review your own words . . . . in one sentence you attempt to tell us West only focussed on Bush then in another you say West "implied that the efforts would have been faster and the media imagery would have been different if the victims were mostly white."

You appear to be disagreeing in one sentence then saying West did exactly what I said he did in the next, saying the disaster effort, which is obviously far more than GW Bush, and the media coverage of which he has no control, was tainted by race.

By the way, " . . . . . the media imagery would be different?" What in hell is that supposed to mean? Have you been watching tv at all in the last week? What an idiotic thing to say. Frankly, unless you've been watching different networks than the six or seven I've been flipping through, the focus has been on blacks perishing/looting/dying/hanging on by a thread for the last week while we've received disproportionately less interest in the wealthier whites obliterated further along the coast. Even that bloated phoney windbag Geraldo on that cheerleading network FOX has been wall to wall blacks and pleading their case while roasting FEMA. I don't think I've seen that many black people in my life and I've actually been to New Orleans fairly recently!!! There's also the fact the Mayor of New Orleans and his cabinet have gotten mostly a free ride from the press so far after basically abandoning the old, infirm and poor of their race to an advancing Category 4 hurricane. I haven't seen any news outlet ignore the racial question either. Good grief.

Cowperson

[Muta]

Originally posted by Abstract@Sep 4 2005, 03:05 PM

Obviously i would want anyone to give whatever they can to the cause and i'm sure Kanye does too. Perhaps its naive of me but i find it hard to see someone being about to pledge money but then deciding not to on the basis of what a rapper says. He's only saying what millions of us are thinking and have said in some way or another to others.

Society today puts stock in celebrities and puts them in a position of power. Thats why Mike Myers et all were hosting this. If one of these celebrities uses the position they are put in to air their beliefs then i have no problem with that. I'd rather see they are human. What if a month down the line he does an interview and says he was unhappy with the relief effort after keeping quiet on the telethon. Would that not make him look hypocritical? He said what he thought and i cant fault him for that.

Well, I'm not sure that 'millions' think like this... that issue is too large and complex to be taken up here. That's quite the generalization, though. While the relief effort may have been initially slow in response time from Bush's end, I hardly see how this makes him 'racist' and hating black people. On every newscast I watched on Katrina, there were also white people in the same dire straits as black people. To me, this accusation just seems way too easy to hammer a political figure when the situation clearly isn't about race. It's about saving as many victims as possible, and if the majority of people who live in New Orleans are black, then this just strengthens my argument.

While Kanye has every right to his opinion, his comment would be better suited at a different time, and a different place. Instead of putting the focus on the victims of Katrina, he has shifted it to whether or not Bush is a 'racist', and has made the American Red Cross look bad for affiliating themselves with Kanye and his political viewpoints.

While we know that the Am. Red Cross does not (and should not) associate with any one person's political viewpoints, the average viewer who watched that program has, with no doubt in my mind, seen that comment as inappropriate - which likely has affected donation amounts.

You are right - celebrities (unfortunently) do have the power to influence one's decision through telethons like these. But to hamper the amount of donations in a situation where the more there is hte better - well, then that's obviously the wrong time for Mr. West to be making those comments.

Why couldn't he have done it in one of his music videos? The Am. Red Cross telethon is not the place.

[Abstract]

Just to clarify im not saying what he said was right, im saying he was right to say it if thats what he felt.

Also you contradict yourself in your own post. How can it be quite a generalisation to say that millions of people think Bush is a racist but you can state that what Mr West said has been seen as innappropriate by the average viewer. Quite the generalisation there huh?

You cant tell how people will react to his comments. Look at the range on here - some support it some think it was plain wrong and some really couldnt care less.

[Muta]

Originally posted by Abstract@Sep 4 2005, 03:45 PM
Just to clarify im not saying what he said was right, im saying he was right to say it if thats what he felt.

Also you contradict yourself in your own post. How can it be quite a generalisation to say that millions of people think Bush is a racist but you can state that what Mr West said has been seen as innappropriate by the average viewer. Quite the generalisation there huh?

You cant tell how people will react to his comments. Look at the range on here - some support it some think it was plain wrong and some really couldnt care less.

Doesn't really matter if he was right to say it if that's how he felt - it wasn't the time or place. I'm not saying that you think what he said was right; but there are times when some things shouldn't be said at all; they should be reserved for a more appropriate time, even if it meant not stating your opinion when you want to. This was one of those times.

Interpret what you want as a generalization. Saying 'millions' of people think Bush is racist, and saying that Kanye's comments likely have affected donation amounts are on two different levels of complexity. I am aware that what I said is a generalization; a hypothesis. But I personally don't think it is as unrealistic as your generalization. Nobody knows that 'millions' of people thing GWB is racist. I think it is safe to say that the average viewer who watched that telethon may have had their decision to donate affected by what Kanye said. To think otherwise is naive.

EDIT: forgot a word.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Sep 4 2005, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Sep 4 2005, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Quoted for truth

Hilarious.

I saw BOTH of those pictures when they were published on the website and those are NOT the captions that accompanied them.

Pathetic. [/b][/quote]
If they have indeed been changed, than yes, that is pathetic.
If you have a link to the real captions, please share.
But until proven I'm gonna judge by what I've seen, rather than your word.

[atb]

Thought this was a pretty funny difference, although the top photo has a guy with a garbage back full of stuff while the bottom photo they just have a couple items:

Yahoo News

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally posted by Cowperson
In principle, it is the same.

As you were well aware in dodging the main point, there was no attempt to compare the gravity of the situations, merely pointing to the similar anger at an an apparently indifferent officialdom as a crisis spun out of control . . . but I noted one situation carried the extra burden of an accusation of racial bias and questioned why that would be.

I'm not dodging any points. The reason they are incomparible is not because of the gravity of the situations. It is becuse as you have noted, one situation carries an important variable that the other doesn't. That race angle, makes them completely different in principle. You can't just ignore that most important factor of the entire debate.
If there's a discusion about racism, and you take race out of the example, how is that the same?

As I stated above . . . . sometimes people just fata up, plain and simple.

Fair enough. But people should have the right to question those F-ups. I would agree that it should be questioned of all parties as well.

When opportunistic ghouls like Jesse Jackson pop their heads out of their holes in times like this, playing the race card each and every time, I can't help but think of the boy who cried wolf. There are obviously times when they are right . . . . but they're not right 100% of the time and therefore their assertions shouldn't be accepted as a fait accompli.

Believe me, I am no fan of people playing the race card when it really isn't there. That really gets on my nerves as well, but I think this is a situation where it is worthy of being brought up.

We all have an opinion but if West wants to blurt out stuff like that then he should be accountable for it and asked to back it up. Or apologize. Just like a public white personality in our PC world would have had to if he'd labelled a black a racist.

He is being held accountable for it, he said what he felt was true, and I'm sure he'll back it up when questioned about it. He should not have to apologize for giving his opinion.
If this situation was reversed, and a white celeb said that while a black president (I know those words don't go together) was slow to react to a bunch of white people going through this, I would support him too. If the PC world reacted as you think, than that would be wrong as well. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

And while he's at it, Mr. West might tell us why the city of New Orleans run by a black mayor and a black cabinet had no credible local disaster plan for an event most knew would eventually come

Again, as I stated all parties should be held accountable. Kanye didn't mention all parties, but that doesn't meen he supports the rest of them.

Perhaps we should review your own words . . . . in one sentence you attempt to tell us West only focussed on Bush then in another you say West "implied that the efforts would have been faster and the media imagery would have been different if the victims were mostly white."

You appear to be disagreeing in one sentence then saying West did exactly what I said he did in the next, saying the disaster effort, which is obviously far more than GW Bush, and the media coverage of which he has no control, was tainted by race.

I will try to keep this simple for you. If you watch the clip, you will see who Kanye called out. It was Bush and the media. He was saying the effort would have been faster from Bush, not the individual white peopleas you have brought up. It's the deployment of these people that needed to be faster, not the pilots themselves.

and the media coverage of which he has no control

That part is hilarious. Bush has no control over the media in the US? LOL Crawl out of your cave.

By the way, " . . . . . the media imagery would be different?" What in hell is that supposed to mean? Have you been watching tv at all in the last week? What an idiotic thing to say. Frankly, unless you've been watching different networks than the six or seven I've been flipping through, the focus has been on blacks perishing/looting/dying/hanging on by a thread for the last week while we've received disproportionately less interest in the wealthier whites obliterated further along the coast.

OMG, That means that Kanye thinks blacks are being portayed as looters, while whites are being portrayed as victims.
As for the rest of your juvenile quote, I was referring to what Kanye thought of the media. I didn't even say that I thought that , or have seen that in the media.
I wrote
His comment implied that the efforts would have been faster and the media imagery would have been different

Am I idiotic for telling you what he thought? or are you idiotic for not understanding a 1 min video clip?

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates+Sep 4 2005, 04:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Winsor_Pilates @ Sep 4 2005, 04:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Hilarious.

I saw BOTH of those pictures when they were published on the website and those are NOT the captions that accompanied them.

Pathetic.

If they have indeed been changed, than yes, that is pathetic.
If you have a link to the real captions, please share.
But until proven I'm gonna judge by what I've seen, rather than your word. [/b][/quote]
Of course, people are proving the wrong people guilty in this case as well.

Yahoo News simply posts what it gets from organizations like the AP.

Nobody seems to be paying attention to the fact that the white people finding stuff image and caption came from the AP, while the black people looting stuff came from the AFP.

Does anybody have an image of an AP caption stating black people were "looting", so as to prove a charge of racism against the AP? Or, does anyone have an image of an AFP caption stating white people were "finding" to prove a charge of racism against the AFP?

While it certantly is suspicious it could also merely be a case of two different news agencies using different words.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates+Sep 4 2005, 04:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Winsor_Pilates @ Sep 4 2005, 04:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson
In principle, it is the same.

As you were well aware in dodging the main point, there was no attempt to compare the gravity of the situations, merely pointing to the similar anger at an an apparently indifferent officialdom as a crisis spun out of control . . . but I noted one situation carried the extra burden of an accusation of racial bias and questioned why that would be.

I'm not dodging any points. The reason they are incomparible is not because of the gravity of the situations. It is becuse as you have noted, one situation carries an important variable that the other doesn't. That race angle, makes them completely different in principle. You can't just ignore that most important factor of the entire debate.
If there's a discusion about racism, and you take race out of the example, how is that the same?

As I stated above . . . . sometimes people just fata up, plain and simple.

When opportunistic ghouls like Jesse Jackson pop their heads out of their holes in times like this, playing the race card each and every time, I can't help but think of the boy who cried wolf. There are obviously times when they are right . . . . but they're not right 100% of the time and therefore their assertions shouldn't be accepted as a fait accompli.

Believe me, I am no fan of people playing the race card when it really isn't there. That really gets on my nerves as well, but I think this is a situation where it is worthy of being brought up.

We all have an opinion but if West wants to blurt out stuff like that then he should be accountable for it and asked to back it up. Or apologize. Just like a public white personality in our PC world would have had to if he'd labelled a black a racist.

He is being held accountable for it, he said what he felt was true, and I'm sure he'll back it up when questioned about it. He should not have to apologize for giving his opinion.
If this situation was reversed, and a white celeb said that while a black president (I know those words don't go together) was slow to react to a bunch of white people going through this, I would support him too. If the PC world reacted as you think, than that would be wrong as well. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

And while he's at it, Mr. West might tell us why the city of New Orleans run by a black mayor and a black cabinet had no credible local disaster plan for an event most knew would eventually come

Again, as I stated all parties should be held accountable. Kanye didn't mention all parties, but that doesn't meen he supports the rest of them.

Perhaps we should review your own words . . . .# in one sentence you attempt to tell us West only focussed on Bush then in another you say West "implied that the efforts would have been faster and the media imagery would have been different if the victims were mostly white."

You appear to be disagreeing in one sentence then saying West did exactly what I said he did in the next, saying the disaster effort, which is obviously far more than GW Bush, and the media coverage of which he has no control, was tainted by race.

I will try to keep this simple for you. If you watch the clip, you will see who Kanye called out. It was Bush and the media. He was saying the effort would have been faster from Bush, not the individual white peopleas you have brought up. It's the deployment of these people that needed to be faster, not the pilots themselves.

and the media coverage of which he has no control

By the way, " . . . . . the media imagery would be different?" What in hell is that supposed to mean? Have you been watching tv at all in the last week? What an idiotic thing to say. Frankly, unless you've been watching different networks than the six or seven I've been flipping through, the focus has been on blacks perishing/looting/dying/hanging on by a thread for the last week while we've received disproportionately less interest in the wealthier whites obliterated further along the coast.

OMG, That means that Kanye thinks blacks are being portayed as looters, while whites are being portrayed as victims.
As for the rest of your juvenile quote, I was referring to what Kanye thought of the media. I didn't even say that I thought that , or have seen that in the media.
I wrote
His comment implied that the efforts would have been faster and the media imagery would have been different

Am I idiotic for telling you what he thought? or are you idiotic for not understanding a 1 min video clip? [/b][/quote]
I'm not dodging any points. The reason they are incomparible is not because of the gravity of the situations. It is becuse as you have noted, one situation carries an important variable that the other doesn't. That race angle, makes them completely different in principle. You can't just ignore that most important factor of the entire debate.

If there's a discusion about racism, and you take race out of the example, how is that the same?

A discussion of racism isn't complete without a discussion of whether its applicable or not . . . . . and I provided an example of a recent situation of corporate and government sloth and indifference in an emergency where race was never indicated to be a factor.

I asked, in that instance, if the reason race was not a factor was ONLY because everyone involved was white and asked if in the New Orleans situation if race was brought into the situation not because it was relevant, but because the accuser may be a racist himself.

As such, I was certainly discussing race and therefore you're dodging the point again. The different gravity of the two situations is irrelevant to the debate point as I've adequately explained above.

Fair enough. But people should have the right to question those F-ups. I would agree that it should be questioned of all parties as well.

We agree.

I've been involved in other threads criticizing both FEMA as well as the local Mayor.

Nevertheless, I haven't accused the black mayor of New Orleans of racism for having an inadequate local disaster plan, for leaving the infirm, destitute and elderly behind in New Orleans to fend for themselves before this was a federal emergency.

I haven't accused the black mayor of racism for delaying the insertion of federal relief supplies into the city by prioritzing using helicopters to pluck people off rooftops.

I haven't accused the black mayor of racism for delaying the evacuation and supplying of local hospitals for the same reason as above.

What I HAVE accused the black mayor of New Orleans is is incompetence and failed leadership.

If Bush can be called a racist for incompetence or indifference, why can't I call the black mayor a racist as well. Because he's black and we're talking about predominately black victims? Is that the only reason?

Just today rescuers went to a hospice for mentally handicapped people and found ten dead and rescued another ten, according to a statement from one of the rescuers.

Why were mentally handicapped people left behind by the Mayor BEFORE the disaster struck, a clear task for local and not federal authorities? Why was there another, similar, description of a hospice for the elderly coming up today, half dead and half living when rescuers arrived?

Its yet another nail in the coffin of the local authorities of which the Mayor is responsible. Locals are responsible for those two situations, particularly the evacuation and care of the mentally handicapped and elderly before the hurricane even struck.

Those kinds of questions are as relevant for the black mayor of New Orleans as the questions regarding the delay in FEMA response are for the white president.

And my opinion is that negligence/incompetence in both cases is not a black or white issue.

Therefore we circle around to Mr. West's comments, the careless and self-serving insertion of race into this debate of competence of the authorities in office to protect Americans.

I think all people who want to ensure this kind of top to bottom cluster fata doesn't happen again should be concerned about the insertion of race into the final analysis given it might mean the real and serious issues aren't addressed and repaired, both at the FEMA level and, more importantly, the local disaster planning level where the black mayor might get a free ride simply because he's black and no one dares to touch him because of it.

OMG, That means that Kanye thinks blacks are being portayed as looters, while whites are being portrayed as victims.

Well, I guess he's entitled to Jesse Jackson's opinion.

On the raw footage, it was pretty hard to pick out any white faces doing the looting in a city that's 70% black and where those most likely to have been left behind are probably in an even higher percentage than that.

There was looting. Most left behind were black. Therefore most looters were black.

Just a guess, but those five or six guys shot to death on a bridge today for sniping at civilian contractors are going to turn out to be black. Is that a racist guess or just a cold analysis of probability?

If you've ever been to New Orleans and want to go searching for the classic racial stereotype of "shiftless, unemployed gangs of young blacks with mean, hateful looks in their eyes" then you won't have to go far off the beaten tourist path in The Big Easy.

Then again, I remember sitting on a bench on the banks of the Mississippi having an amiable chat with an elderly black man with a cane and a fedora about his trip to Canada one time. I've been thinking about him and also an elderly but spirited white lady who was guiding us around one day, wondering how both might have fared.

I found it to be a unique and interesting city . . . . . and poor and dirty. But those four descriptives would surprise no one.

Believe me, I am no fan of people playing the race card when it really isn't there. That really gets on my nerves as well, but I think this is a situation where it is worthy of being brought up.

And, I presume, dismissed just as readily if irrelevant. Right? Or are you clinging to a hope here?

He is being held accountable for it, he said what he felt was true, and I'm sure he'll back it up when questioned about it.

Since when is a black man in America going to be brought to task for calling a white man a racist? Many days of the week, sadly, he's still going to be right and white America has settled into accepting the percentages without qualm.

He should not have to apologize for giving his opinion.

Mostly yes. Calling a person a racist is an elevated opinion though. There's opinions and then there's OPINIONS. Its not like he's giving his opinion of Randy Travis (har!! Great concert at the Jube last night by the way).

That part is hilarious. Bush has no control over the media in the US? LOL Crawl out of your cave.

It must be pretty dark in there yourself with your head up Noam Chomsky's ass. Fortunately, I don't get my news through the filter of the Daily Leftist.

Bush is being roasted from coast to coast, north and south. That's undeniable even for his enemies (and, contrary to popular belief, I'm no fan, favouring only Afghanistan and Iraq among his policies and have otherwise ALWAYS considered him a bit of a dangerous buffoon).

For a guy apparently pulling the strings and writing editorials in the New York Times, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post and Boston Globe, to name a few, he's sure pushing the wrong keys on the typewriter right now. He also sure has a funny way of editing CNN which just showed various FEMA officials in before/after clips grossly contradicting themselves as to how much lead time they had before they knew this hurricane was going to turn deadly. Give your head a shake.

Am I idiotic for telling you what he thought? or are you idiotic for not understanding a 1 min video clip?

Since you contradicted yourself in your interpretation as described earlier . . . .

I've watched the clip - died laughing at Mike Myers too like everyone else - and read the text. Whitey America is indifferent to the plight of blacks, led by the chief whitey.

Personally, I think the more likely answer is that people just fata up sometimes. Both black and white. There's a pretty high percentage of that being the truth in this situation.

While it certantly is suspicious it could also merely be a case of two different news agencies using different words.

Or, another plausible explanation, a black guy was seen and photographed coming out of a grocery store with a garbage back full of stuff while a white woman was not seen coming out a grocery store with one (1) loaf of bread (if it were me and I'd made the decision to pillage, I think I might have grabbed two loaves but not three as that would have been avarice) and photographed as described. Each photographer would have provided caption information to be interpreted by editors and, as Snakeye noted, the description of the white woman is from Agence France Press. Was the American news agency biased or was the French news agency biased? Or both describing accurately what the photographers submitted. Its unlikely Yahoo was writing the copy.

Don't mind me. Since last December I've been mostly off the time-consuming off-topic board merry-go-round. I'll disappear again shortly for a while.

Cowperson

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Winsor_Pilates+Sep 4 2005, 11:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Winsor_Pilates @ Sep 4 2005, 11:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Hilarious.

I saw BOTH of those pictures when they were published on the website and those are NOT the captions that accompanied them.

Pathetic.

If they have indeed been changed, than yes, that is pathetic.
If you have a link to the real captions, please share.
But until proven I'm gonna judge by what I've seen, rather than your word. [/b][/quote]
Well, I went searching. Interesting stuff I found.

I assumed both pictures were real. I know I saw the one of the 'looter' on CNN.com . I am sure that they did not use the caption that yahoo's website has beside the picture. However, I did find the picture on yahoo news and it does have the same caption.

CNN changed the caption

If you go to the above link you will find some support for my statement about the changing of the caption by CNN.

I also found this picture in the same yahoo news slideshow as the 'looter' picture. It is also an AP photo like the original we've been discussing.

Another looter

There in the foreground you will see Whitey. Whitey is clearly accused of looting by the caption.

**edited to change final picture link to the picture and text page, not just the image location.

[CaramonLS]

Ok who told cow about this thread.