[PGT] Ducks beat Flames 6-3, Honda Center curse continues

[Igster]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Stajan was horrible last night. Seems he is also back to his stupid penalty routine. He was poison on the puck last night. Everytime he touched it the play died or the Ducks got the puck. Watched it every shift he was out there in all three zones. Have no idea why people continually defend this guy. Granlund should have his spot.

Raymond was also horribad. Finished with a -4 on the night (next closest were Jones and Jooris with -2's), dragging down any linemates that were out with him. The guy has some serious tunnel vision taking low % shots, not even looking for an open man. Such weak play from this guy, no wonder the Canucks and Leafs didn't care to attempt to re-sign him.

Some of this dead weight has to be cut with all the young guys we have pushing for a spot.

Good post. Agreed on all points. I also thought Jooris wasn't that good either. Yes, first game back, but I think it may have been a mistake to take Granlund out and replace him with Jooris for this big game. I thought Granlund had a few good games under his belt recently.

I'm done with Raymond and Stajan. Really hope the Flames can dump these guys. Better options on the farm and I don't get the "veteran" presence comments about Stajan at times. If by veteran people mean "takes stupid penalties" then yes, I agree.

[Burke Salad]

Kind of curious if the franchise has tried to change there routines/hotels etc?whenever they are down in Orange County. I mean any little thing could'nt hurt now in that building.

[868904]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Stajan was horrible last night. Seems he is also back to his stupid penalty routine. He was poison on the puck last night. Everytime he touched it the play died or the Ducks got the puck. Watched it every shift he was out there in all three zones. Have no idea why people continually defend this guy. Granlund should have his spot.

Raymond was also horribad. Finished with a -4 on the night (next closest were Jones and Jooris with -2's), dragging down any linemates that were out with him. The guy has some serious tunnel vision taking low % shots, not even looking for an open man. Such weak play from this guy, no wonder the Canucks and Leafs didn't care to attempt to re-sign him.

Some of this dead weight has to be cut with all the young guys we have pushing for a spot.

Raymond has gotten better, but that's not hard considering how terrible he was. He only limited himself to one stupid turnover last night. I am surprised to see his minus 4 though.

Speaking of turnovers, Johnny was brutal in the first two periods last night. First two goals were a direct result of him turning the puck over in the defensive zone. Love the kid, but I don't think he gets held accountable on this board for his mistakes. Granted he is just a rookie, and he can do things others can't, but I think if we are going to harp on others for dumb turnovers, we have to harp on Johnny too.

I feel he's playing a bit too much on the perimeter lately. I think he needs to attack the net a bit more. Also needs to maybe aim for the corners. I don't know how many times he's shot the puck right into the goalie's chest recently. Getting stronger overall, and have a quicker release and harder shot will probably help him next year.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by 868904

Raymond has gotten better, but that's not hard considering how terrible he was. He only limited himself to one stupid turnover last night. I am surprised to see his minus 4 though.

Speaking of turnovers, Johnny was brutal in the first two periods last night. First two goals were a direct result of him turning the puck over in the defensive zone. Love the kid, but I don't think he gets held accountable on this board for his mistakes. Granted he is just a rookie, and he can do things others can't, but I think if we are going to harp on others for dumb turnovers, we have to harp on Johnny too.

I feel he's playing a bit too much on the perimeter lately. I think he needs to attack the net a bit more. Also needs to maybe aim for the corners. I don't know how many times he's shot the puck right into the goalie's chest recently. Getting stronger overall, and have a quicker release and harder shot will probably help him next year.

1) He was being crucified in the GT.

2) it was only the first - he was fantastic in the second, and was a driving force of the momentum change IMO.

I think he is held accountable to a reasonable degree. And I think the reason he isn't getting a lot of heat in this thread is due to the way he turned it around, mid-game.

If we see that kind of play for two or three games in a row (as opposed to a period), I think the reaction from fans will be very different.

But I think it's important to keep a couple things in mind: it's a game of bounces, using a stick to bang around an oddly shaped piece of hard rubber; Gaudreau is a playmaker and as a result, needs the puck on his stick as much as possible to be effective, and the more you have the puck, the more you are going to turn it over; and (obviously) he is a rookie, and rookies are notoriously inconsistent. Having said that, I think Gaudreau has been incredibly consistent all year.

So I am willing to be patient and cut him some slack when things occasionally don't go well.

[Igster]

Yeah, Johnny wasn't very good at all in the first, but he played some excellent hockey in the second and third. His pass to Monahan was a thing of beauty.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

1) He was being crucified in the GT.

2) it was only the first - he was fantastic in the second, and was a driving force of the momentum change IMO.

I think he is held accountable to a reasonable degree. And I think the reason he isn't getting a lot of heat in this thread is due to the way he turned it around, mid-game.

If we see that kind of play for two or three games in a row (as opposed to a period), I think the reaction from fans will be very different.

But I think it's important to keep a couple things in mind: it's a game of bounces, using a stick to bang around an oddly shaped piece of hard rubber; Gaudreau is a playmaker and as a result, needs the puck on his stick as much as possible to be effective, and the more you have the puck, the more you are going to turn it over; and (obviously) he is a rookie, and rookies are notoriously inconsistent. Having said that, I think Gaudreau has been incredibly consistent all year.

So I am willing to be patient and cut him some slack when things occasionally don't go well.

Totally agree here. This isn't about accountability, though that's important. Johnny is relied upon to handle the puck more because he creates that way. Because of that, turnovers are going to happen. Certainly there's times and places (like in your zone when your team is changing) where he needs to learn not to hold it, but he's also a rookie. We better be prepared for turnovers over his career because he's a guy who carries the puck, full stop. He's always going to create more for you than against, but that's the risk you need to take when you have a guy like that. It's one thing to be out of position when defending or not putting in effort when backchecking, but turnovers when you're the "point guard" are just going to happen

[Robo]

johnny isn't getting held accountable on this board because he is a rookie. A rookie who is one of the main reasons our team is where they are, it makes no sense the kid has been spectacular and gives it his all every game.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Totally agree here. This isn't about accountability, though that's important. Johnny is relied upon to handle the puck more because he creates that way. Because of that, turnovers are going to happen. Certainly there's times and places (like in your zone when your team is changing) where he needs to learn not to hold it, but he's also a rookie. We better be prepared for turnovers over his career because he's a guy who carries the puck, full stop. He's always going to create more for you than against, but that's the risk you need to take when you have a guy like that. It's one thing to be out of position when defending or not putting in effort when backchecking, but turnovers when you're the "point guard" are just going to happen

Yup.

And I would add another thing. I think the Flames need to learn to break out on the other side more (or, if they like the left side, have Gaudreau switch sides with the RW in their own zone) because having the breakout always go through him puts too much pressure on him.

The defenseman always pinches, knowing that a) he can dominate Gaudreau physically and b) Gaudreau is usually looking to make a pass, it just isn't in his nature to chip it out.

I would rather see them break out on the other winger's side, which would open things up for Gaudreau to get the puck in the neutral zone, where he is dangerous, as opposed to his own half wall, where he is disadvantaged and inexperienced.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yup.

And I would add another thing. I think the Flames need to learn to break out on the other side more (or, if they like the left side, have Gaudreau switch sides with the RW in their own zone) because having the breakout always go through him puts too much pressure on him.

The defenseman always pinches, knowing that a) he can dominate Gaudreau physically and b) Gaudreau is usually looking to make a pass, it just isn't in his nature to chip it out.

I would rather see them break out on the other winger's side, which would open things up for Gaudreau to get the puck in the neutral zone, where he is dangerous, as opposed to his own half wall, where he is disadvantaged and inexperienced.

I actually want to try Gaudreau out on the RW. I wonder if that would do any good.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Igster

Good post. Agreed on all points. I also thought Jooris wasn't that good either. Yes, first game back, but I think it may have been a mistake to take Granlund out and replace him with Jooris for this big game. I thought Granlund had a few good games under his belt recently.

I'm done with Raymond and Stajan. Really hope the Flames can dump these guys. Better options on the farm and I don't get the "veteran" presence comments about Stajan at times. If by veteran people mean "takes stupid penalties" then yes, I agree.

The penalty he took yesterday was just in a fight behind the net for the puck. Lots of players get that call, including players on this team I'm sure you like.

The penalty against LAK was a dive by Brown - the panel agreed it wasn't a bad penalty and maybe not even one at all. There were calls throughout that game and it's Stajan's you want to single out?

Stajan's value which you don't get is: defensive zone faceoffs; turning the 4th line around (look at Bollig before and after Stajan's return); decent offensive ability (look at what he did against LAK and his assist on Colborne's goal). Tell me what centre on the farm is better in that role? Arnold? Shore? Hell, even up here Jooris was worse as a 4th line centre, based on the line's play. Byron too, the odd time he took centre.

[Igster]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The penalty he took yesterday was just in a fight behind the net for the puck. Lots of players get that call, including players on this team I'm sure you like.

The penalty against LAK was a dive by Brown - the panel agreed it wasn't a bad penalty and maybe not even one at all. There were calls throughout that game and it's Stajan's you want to single out?

Stajan's value which you don't get is: defensive zone faceoffs; turning the 4th line around (look at Bollig before and after Stajan's return); decent offensive ability (look at what he did against LAK and his assist on Colborne's goal). Tell me what centre on the farm is better in that role? Arnold? Shore? Hell, even up here Jooris was worse as a 4th line centre, based on the line's play. Byron too, the odd time he took centre.

You sure like busting my chops huh?

Listen, I know there is some value in Stajan. But at the end of the day, I believe the Flames can move on from him and replace what he does with someone else. My opinion...and nothing else. Thanks.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Igster

Better options on the farm and I don't get the "veteran" presence comments about Stajan at times.

Put me in the camp of making the comments you don't get.

We can't just have a team of kids, this is one of the mistakes the Oilers have made (one of a billion haha). They were talking about this on the Fan this morning, Rhett was saying that you have to be really careful in regards to veteran players because they are teachers and leaders in the room. They were talking specifically about Stajan and Glencross in regards to culture and chemistry because I think Boomer was taking your view on things. There is more to a team than what is on the ice, and that sounds kind of silly but I believe it and Warrener the ex-NHLer was saying the same thing.

Also, IMO Stajan has been playing solidly anyways. I think he's one of the best 4th line C in the league.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Robo

johnny isn't getting held accountable on this board because he is a rookie. A rookie who is one of the main reasons our team is where they are, it makes no sense the kid has been spectacular and gives it his all every game.

All players should be held accountable. You start giving certain players free passes and you become the No Goods.

Sven was held accountable and he's a rookie. There shouldn't be a double standard and the reason for giving him a pass should not be because he's a rookie.

If you say, it's because Johnny generates so much more offense, that you have to give Johnny a bit of a pass, that's reasonable.

I don't want to sound like i'm harping on Johnny cause I know how important he is to this team, but he has to be held accountable and learn too. It wasn't just one game that he turned the puck over. It happens regularly, and yes it is because he has the puck so often. There were more than two turnovers by him in the first period yesterday, luckily only two ended up in the back of the net. I'm just hoping that he improves this part of his game and limits the turnovers, that's all.

There's nothing wrong with hoping for improvement. He's a good kid and you could tell that he wanted to make up for his mistakes.

[Igster]

Originally Posted by heep223

Put me in the camp of making the comments you don't get.

We can't just have a team of kids, this is one of the mistakes the Oilers have made (one of a billion haha). They were talking about this on the Fan this morning, Rhett was saying that you have to be really careful in regards to veteran players because they are teachers and leaders in the room. They were talking specifically about Stajan and Glencross in regards to culture and chemistry because I think Boomer was taking your view on things. There is more to a team than what is on the ice, and that sounds kind of silly but I believe it and Warrener the ex-NHLer was saying the same thing.

Also, IMO Stajan has been playing solidly anyways. I think he's one of the best 4th line C in the league.

There are a number of vets on the Flames. Just not a Stajan fan. I'm clearly not the only one, as Stajan doesn't get much love on the forum. He seems like a nice enough guy, but I would like to see the Flames move on from him and Raymond as noted in my original post.

Guys like David Jones play harder and I can appreciate what a Jones brings to the lineup over Stajan. Yes, different roles, but both fit in the "vet" experience group.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by 868904

All players should be held accountable. You start giving certain players free passes and you become the No Goods.

Sven was held accountable and he's a rookie. There shouldn't be a double standard and the reason for giving him a pass should not be because he's a rookie.

If you say, it's because Johnny generates so much more offense, that you have to give Johnny a bit of a pass, that's reasonable.

I don't want to sound like i'm harping on Johnny cause I know how important he is to this team, but he has to be held accountable and learn too. It wasn't just one game that he turned the puck over. It happens regularly, and yes it is because he has the puck so often. There were more than two turnovers by him in the first period yesterday, luckily only two ended up in the back of the net. I'm just hoping that he improves this part of his game and limits the turnovers, that's all.

There's nothing wrong with hoping for improvement. He's a good kid and you could tell that he wanted to make up for his mistakes.

I agree and i'm sure the coach did give him a talking too about that period and that's fine and deserved. I was more talking about the reason the fans are giving him a pass and not harping on him for a bad period.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Igster

You sure like busting my chops huh?

Listen, I know there is some value in Stajan. But at the end of the day, I believe the Flames can move on from him and replace what he does with someone else. My opinion...and nothing else. Thanks.

I don't think people 'like busting your chops' just for the hell of it. I think people are busting your chops because you have an opinion here that some strongly disagree with.

Sometimes when one person has an opinion that others strongly disagree with or feel the opinion is unwarranted or even stupid (whether it's you, I, or anyone else) this will happen. That said, it shouldn't be a surprise if the person who has an opinion that others totally disagree with gets called out (in this case your opinion).

[Igster]

Meh, I took a lot of heat in the game thread last night from a couple of posters (though Gio may have been one of them) for calling Johnny out in the first period, as many other posters were in the thread, so I'm getting used to it now.

I'm not going to change my opinion just because people don't like it. That's what these forums are for. Expressing our opinion. And in my opinion, the Flames should move on from guys like Stajan. I think Stajan is a very nice guy...this is nothing personal. Just a hockey thought and nothing more.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Igster

You sure like busting my chops huh?

Listen, I know there is some value in Stajan. But at the end of the day, I believe the Flames can move on from him and replace what he does with someone else. My opinion...and nothing else. Thanks.

Who though? It's easy to say "replace Stajan", but with whom?

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

If the Flames can find someone to take him in trade, I think you have to move Raymond. He has been terrible except for the game against the Oilers early in the season.

At the rate he's playing, I think that waivers might be in his future and that's shocking all things considered. Too many players playing better in this organization both on Adirondack and Calgary to waste the roster spot having him playing that poorly. The Flames already sent Setoguchi down to the AHL, and Raymond hasn't been any better than him since the middle of October.

Raymond has negative value. We'd have to give up an extra asset to rid ourselves of him, especially since he has 2 years left on his deal after this year.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Igster

Meh, I took a lot of heat in the game thread last night from a couple of posters (though Gio may have been one of them) for calling Johnny out in the first period, as many other posters were in the thread, so I'm getting used to it now.

I'm not going to change my opinion just because people don't like it. That's what these forums are for. Expressing our opinion. And in my opinion, the Flames should move on from guys like Stajan. I think Stajan is a very nice guy...this is nothing personal. Just a hockey thought and nothing more.

Your problem is that instead of backing up what you say you instantly pull the victim card, resort to pointing out you're not the only one who feels that way, and then add the disclaimer you're entitled to your opinion.

None of that is disputed. But back up what you say, and you'd have less people "ragging" on you for the outlandish things you say.

Perfect example is what you touch on above. You weren't "calling out Johnny". You were flat out suggesting he needed to be sat. There's a big difference between pointing out someone's having a bad couple of shifts and determining they need to be pulled from the game. As we saw, that would have been a very premature move because he turned it around pretty quick.

This is a message board and people are going to disagree with you. Instead of pulling the victim card, try backing up what you say.