Vegas has the Flames dead last in the West next season

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I wouldn't bet on that. Ottawa kept their foundation pieces in guys like Spezza, Phillips, Alfreddson. Calgary purged their core.

I'd expect that Calgary will be lost in the desert for at least a few seasons.

This draft I think will set which direction things will go. If they get 3 NHL quality players (2 top six forwards and a third line player) in the first round (any players found in the rest of the draft would be extra gravy) coupled with what will most likely be a top five pick next year would certainly speed up the process. If this draft bombs and we don't get anything worth while then it will definitely be a few years.

I think the biggest difference between the Oilers and the Flames is that the Flames still have some competent NHL components (even blowing the team up we didn't finish last in the league something the Oilers made look ridiculously easy).

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I wouldn't bet on that. Ottawa kept their foundation pieces in guys like Spezza, Phillips, Alfreddson. Calgary purged their core.

I'd expect that Calgary will be lost in the desert for at least a few seasons.

Ottawa lost Fisher, Kovalev, Kuba, Kelly, etc...

Yes they kept Alfresson, Spezza, and Philips, but Phillips and Alfie are no longer the core of the team. Spezza, who is still playing well, was injured for most of the season and only played in 5 games. They have many players on their roster they've drafted, but many others they've acquired through trade or FA, including: Gonchar and Turris (their leding scorers through the regular season).

The Sens highest draft pick was #6 overall. They had a #9 overall too, but certainly didn't have multiple top 3 picks, a la Oilers.

My point is that a rebuild can be done in a couple of years of retooling and reloading. Expect the Flames rebuild to be far more similar to what Ottawa did than Edmonton. The Flames arleady have Backlund, Baertschi, Brodie, and Giordano (not drafted but signed undrafted), and yes they will need to add to that. However, following Ottawa's model, that would mean adding 4-5 more players from their prospect pool and drafts over the next couple of years.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by blankall

Ottawa lost Fisher, Kovalev, Kuba, Kelly, etc...

Yes they kept Alfresson, Spezza, and Philips, but Phillips and Alfie are no longer the core of the team. Spezza, who is still playing well, was injured for most of the season and only played in 5 games. They have many players on their roster they've drafted, but many others they've acquired through trade or FA, including: Gonchar and Turris (their leding scorers through the regular season).

The Sens highest draft pick was #6 overall. They had a #9 overall too, but certainly didn't have multiple top 3 picks, a la Oilers.

My point is that a rebuild can be done in a couple of years of retooling and reloading. Expect the Flames rebuild to be far more similar to what Ottawa did than Edmonton. The Flames arleady have Backlund, Baertschi, Brodie, and Giordano (not drafted but signed undrafted), and yes they will need to add to that. However, following Ottawa's model, that would mean adding 4-5 more players from their prospect pool and drafts over the next couple of years.

Yeah, all we need to find are a #1 C, a #1 D and a #1 G and we are right where Ottawa was.

[moon]

Why are the Sens always used as a model to follow when they have finished #8 and #7 with 1 play-off win against a very bad Montreal team?

Sure it is better than the last 5 years the Flames have had but still seems odd as something we should look to follow/emulate, especially when you throw in the fact we are missing the 1C, 1D, 1G and great coach that they have.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Yeah, all we need to find are a #1 C, a #1 D and a #1 G and we are right where Ottawa was.

To be fair Ottawa played this season and qualifed for the playoffs without their #1 D or Centre.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by moon

Why are the Sens always used as a model to follow when they have finished #8 and #7 with 1 play-off win against a very bad Montreal team?

Sure it is better than the last 5 years the Flames have had but still seems odd as something we should look to follow/emulate, especially when you throw in the fact we are missing the 1C, 1D, 1G and great coach that they have.

The Sens are also buliding on their success. They've put together a great group of young players while still trying to be competitive. Another example would be Boston, who took two years off of playoffs, and then charged back in.

[moon]

Originally Posted by blankall

To be fair Ottawa played this season and qualifed for the playoffs without their #1 D or Centre.

They finished 7th in the pathetic East with a Vezina calibre performance from their goalie.

I guess we can hope the West regresses and that one of the goalies has a miracle season but that seems like a pretty flimsy hope to cling to. Throw in the gigantic drop off in coaching ability from Maclean to Hartley and a Vezina calibre season might not be enough to do it.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by moon

They finished 7th in the pathetic East with a Vezina calibre performance from their goalie.

I guess we can hope the West regresses and that one of the goalies has a miracle season but that seems like a pretty flimsy hope to cling to. Throw in the gigantic drop off in coaching ability from Maclean to Hartley and a Vezina calibre season might not be enough to do it.

1) The East is no longer "pathetic"...at least no more pathetic than the West. The bottom 5 teams in the West were all in a race for last place.

2) The Sens have made the playoffs 2 years in a row.

3) The Sens look like they are only going to get better.

My overall point is that you can still push for the playoffs while rebuilding. The Flames will be qulifying for the playoffs sooner than people think.

[Tinordi]

Suffering through these Ottawa comparisons is going to get annoying.

Ottawa had so many more pieces in place when they decided to rebuild. This has been gone over ad nauseum the past 4 months.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by blankall

1) The East is no longer "pathetic"...at least no more pathetic than the West. The bottom 5 teams in the West were all in a race for last place.

2) The Sens have made the playoffs 2 years in a row.

3) The Sens look like they are only going to get better.

My overall point is that you can still push for the playoffs while rebuilding. The Flames will be qulifying for the playoffs sooner than people think.

You can IF you have the players to do it. Its rolling the dice, and sometimes you get Ottawa, sometimes you get Edmonton. Ottawa has the horses to do it. Hell Edmonton kind of has the horses to do it.

Does Calgary? We went into the season with Iginla, Bouw and Kiprusoff. And going into March, we were 2nd last place. Who is going to get the Flames into the playoffs?

[the_professsor]

Originally Posted by moon

They finished 7th in the pathetic East with a Vezina calibre performance from their goalie.

I guess we can hope the West regresses and that one of the goalies has a miracle season but that seems like a pretty flimsy hope to cling to. Throw in the gigantic drop off in coaching ability from Maclean to Hartley and a Vezina calibre season might not be enough to do it.

Vezina calibre? He was injured for half the season, Karlsson and Spezza for the whole season pretty much, and they still had the depth to finish 7th.

I think the Sens are pretty impressive in terms of drafting and development, look at all the players they've drafted that are in their lineup:

Greening (7th round)
Condra (7th round)
Gryba (3rd round)
Karlsson (1st round)
Wiercioch (2nd round)
Smith (3rd round)
Silfverberg (2nd round)
Cowen (1st round)
Stone (6th round)
Pageau (4th round)
Zibanejad (1st round)
Spezza (1st round)
Neil (6th round)
Phillips (1st round)
Alfredsson (6th round)
Lehner (2nd round)

[moon]

Originally Posted by blankall

1) The East is no longer "pathetic"...at least no more pathetic than the West. The bottom 5 teams in the West were all in a race for last place.

2) The Sens have made the playoffs 2 years in a row.

3) The Sens look like they are only going to get better.

My overall point is that you can still push for the playoffs while rebuilding. The Flames will be qulifying for the playoffs sooner than people think.

I would say outside of Minnesota every team in the West would be favored over the Eastern play-off teams outside of Boston and Pittsbrugh. Yes the bottom of the West is just as bad as the bottom of the East but in terms of the top and middle the West is much, much better.

Sure the Sens look okay. I am not sure they have a great group of young players but to me they look like a team that will be okay and in the running for the 6-8 spot in the East for the next 5 years. Nothing to sneeze at but nothing really to shoot for either.

Sure making the play-offs is nice but I would rather miss the play-offs for the next 3 years and emerge as a contender than make it and end up as a mediocre, 2nd tier team that is always a step behind the top teams.

I see no reason and nothing on the roster or in the system to think that the Flames will push for the play-offs anytime soon. They seem to have huge holes everywhere and especially at the key spots (Center, goalie and elite talent) they seem to be missing everything needed for a play-off run earlier than expected (elite player, super goaltending, great system/coach).

[moon]

Originally Posted by the_professsor

Vezina calibre? He was injured for half the season, Karlsson and Spezza for the whole season pretty much, and they still had the depth to finish 7th.

He had by far the best GAA and Sv% in games he played how is that not a Vezina calibre performance? The Sens made the play-offs by 5 points and had one of the worst offenses in the East not hard to imagine that they miss out if Anderson is not playing at that level in the games he was healthy for. Pretty crazy to think that Andersons play didn't have a big role in them finishing 7th instead of 9th or 10th.

I think the Sens are pretty impressive in terms of drafting and development, look at all the players they've drafted that are in their lineup:

Greening (7th round)
Condra (7th round)
Gryba (3rd round)
Karlsson (1st round)
Wiercioch (2nd round)
Smith (3rd round)
Silfverberg (2nd round)
Cowen (1st round)
Stone (6th round)
Pageau (4th round)
Zibanejad (1st round)
Spezza (1st round)
Neil (6th round)
Phillips (1st round)
Alfredsson (6th round)
Lehner (2nd round)

That's a fine list of guys that has a lot more quantity than quality. Good for them. I think I would take half those guys off if I could add the elite level guys that Chicago, Pittsburgh and even LA has drafted/used picks to get.

[the_professsor]

Originally Posted by moon

He had by far the best GAA and Sv% in games he played how is that not a Vezina calibre performance? The Sens made the play-offs by 5 points and had one of the worst offenses in the East not hard to imagine that they miss out if Anderson is not playing at that level in the games he was healthy for. Pretty crazy to think that Andersons play didn't have a big role in them finishing 7th instead of 9th or 10th.

My argument is that playing in 24 games in one season would never amount to Vezina calibre. If you want to assume he sustains that play if he was healthy then sure.

Also I think your overestimating Anderson's effect on the team, his record was 12-9-2 while the other two goalies were 13-8-4.

Originally Posted by moon

That's a fine list of guys that has a lot more quantity than quality. Good for them. I think I would take half those guys off if I could add the elite level guys that Chicago, Pittsburgh and even LA has drafted/used picks to get.

True, but Chicago and Pittsburgh don't really have a model to follow do they? Get lucky and draft 2 all stars? That's the ideal model, but not every team can do that

[djsFlames]

Unfortunately we don't have a Norris worthy Karlsson, a true top line center in Spezza, or our veteran leader (Iggy) in Alfredsson. And Ottawa already has a few Sven-caliber guys coming up through the ranks in Conacher, Silvferberg, Zibanejad. Not to mention a proven goalie (Anderson), although who knows what Ramo/Berra will bring..

We could have those kind of pieces in place after another couple drafts and some good smart trades, but unfortunately we're a step or two behind what even Ottawa had at their disposal before their big turnaround.

[moon]

Originally Posted by the_professsor

My argument is that playing in 24 games in one season would never amount to Vezina calibre. If you want to assume he sustains that play if he was healthy then sure.

Also I think your overestimating Anderson's effect on the team, his record was 12-9-2 while the other two goalies were 13-8-4.

I think he played at a Vezina level when he played. Not that he should win it but his numbers were elite in those games is the point. Could use elite if that is better for you than Vezina. EIther way he won a lot of games that Ottawa loses if Lehner and Bishop are in net.

True, but Chicago and Pittsburgh don't really have a model to follow do they? Get lucky and draft 2 all stars? That's the ideal model, but not every team can do that

I don't think it is get lucky so much as draft high and get elite talent so that when you make smart draft picks in the later rounds/later picks instead of finishing 7/8 like Ottawa you have top guys pushing you over the top to make the late rounds/Finals.

[Flame Of Liberty]

So I see the flavour of the month is Ottawa? Whatever happened to "quick retool Flyers style"?

[Lucifer]

Screw Vegas, Flames are finishing first!

[cral12]

Originally Posted by Jackpot_Smooth

Sam Reinhart.

Connor McDavid in 2015! Rebuild complete.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by FAN

I think the Flames were clearly good enough to make the playoffs in at least one of the years Brent was coaching the team.

I think Calgary was "lost in the desert" two years ago. Today they're deep in the desert, but there is at least a prayer of getting out of it. That's how I feel.

Yeah they'll be bad, who cares, they've been bad before, and there's nowhere really to go but up in my mind.