Does anyone tip more if the waitress is hotter?

[Suave]

Why is tipping even a percentage? Wouldn't it make more sense to be a fixed surcharge. If I order a really expensive bottle of wine vs a cheap one, 6oz vs 10oz steak, do I really need to tip more? Both required the same amount of service out of the staff and the kitchen.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Suave

Why is tipping even a percentage? Wouldn't it make more sense to be a fixed surcharge. If I order a really expensive bottle of wine vs a cheap one, 6oz vs 10oz steak, do I really need to tip more? Both required the same amount of service out of the staff and the kitchen.

This might be a sound argument. Maybe it makes more sense to tip by the number of dishes or weight. I guess it's just easier tipping by percentage.

[VladtheImpaler]

Well, it takes as much effort to bring me a bowl of pho as it does a plate with a steak, so a $1.25 tip per dish sounds reasonable to me.

[Icon]

http://www.smokinghotwaitress.com

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Running a place and being a server are two completely different things. Carrying my plate from a kitchen to my table isn't hard at all. If you do it with a smile you get 20%. If you're a bitch I'll probably give you 15% anyway. Either way it's a lot easier than most other grunt jobs (e.g. landscaping, any trade, etc.) who don't get paid particularly well and certainly don't get tipped.

You do know that the person probably carries over 200 plates a night from the kitchen and they need to get them all right. Not including in charge over maybe over a grand in cash that they are accountable for in their pocket. There can also be over 40 people at one time needing things correctly and on their terms that must be attended to and that is all with a smile. There is a sense of timing that a good server learns so it all looks seemless to you as well. Never mind if a good portion of them are drinking. Don't forget about the real jerk who was rude to them one minute earlier and yet they still need to smile at you. The good ones should be compensated for their skill beyond min wage. To say it is just a smile and a plate drop is again not knowing what goes on.
I have done landscaping and serving and they are both challenging. The difference with serving is you cant just shut down mentally or personally like you can as a landscaper for a few minutes. When the fit hits the shan and it gets even more stressful that is when a server must pick it up and fight through it.
Do you know how many servers have crappy sleeps at night cause they are still working their section in their dreams. It just never ends sometimes and can be very mentally taxing.
I do agree that serving can be less physical than some jobs that make the same money but there are numerous people that would never do it.

My point is we were discussing wages and if you dont know how to run a place how can you truly grasp how the wages should be. I would never go into a business that I have never worked in and pretend I know what wages should be. How much should a lwayer make? or a mechanic? or welder? a factory worker? taxi driver? I have no clue cause there are reasons to justify the wage I am not aware of.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Suave

Why is tipping even a percentage? Wouldn't it make more sense to be a fixed surcharge. If I order a really expensive bottle of wine vs a cheap one, 6oz vs 10oz steak, do I really need to tip more? Both required the same amount of service out of the staff and the kitchen.

That sounds similar to how the flat income tax rate was created.

[DuffMan]

I like the European way of not feeling obligated to tip unless you really feel like it. I think the tips are built into the bill, but whatever, you don't really think about it I guess when you don't have to add it on.

I went out with a pretty hot waitress back in my younger days, and when she needed to make a lot of money she would wear a white TShirt with no bra. She had pretty awesome bewbies. This was in a bar/lounge, not a restaurant.

[SeeBass]

Dont get me wrong for every good server there is some bad ones that don't deserve a nickel from me either.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

You do know that the person probably carries over 200 plates a night from the kitchen and they need to get them all right. Not including in charge over maybe over a grand in cash that they are accountable for in their pocket. There can also be over 40 people at one time needing things correctly and on their terms that must be attended to and that is all with a smile. There is a sense of timing that a good server learns so it all looks seemless to you as well. Never mind if a good portion of them are drinking. Don't forget about the real jerk who was rude to them one minute earlier and yet they still need to smile at you. The good ones should be compensated for their skill beyond min wage. To say it is just a smile and a plate drop is again not knowing what goes on.
I have done landscaping and serving and they are both challenging. The difference with serving is you cant just shut down mentally or personally like you can as a landscaper for a few minutes. When the fit hits the shan and it gets even more stressful that is when a server must pick it up and fight through it.
Do you know how many servers have crappy sleeps at night cause they are still working their section in their dreams. It just never ends sometimes and can be very mentally taxing.
I do agree that serving can be less physical than some jobs that make the same money but there are numerous people that would never do it.

My point is we were discussing wages and if you dont know how to run a place how can you truly grasp how the wages should be. I would never go into a business that I have never worked in and pretend I know what wages should be. How much should a lwayer make? or a mechanic? or welder? a factory worker? taxi driver? I have no clue cause there are reasons to justify the wage I am not aware of.

Meh, doesn't sound that tough to me. There's probably a reason uneducated teenagers make up the lion's share of waitresses I'm used to seeing and it's not because it's a particularly difficult job (low responsibility, low dollar amounts, few if any employees to supervise, their decisions don't affect many people, physically not that demanding, no real unique qualifications, no education required, etc.).

The stress you refer to happens in every job. Landscapers dream about cutting grass. Dry cleaners dry about dry cleaning clothes. Orderlies dream about cleaning up vomit. McDonald's workers (who encounter all of the job stresses you list, but in a tipless environment) dream about serving Big Mac's.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

You do know that the person probably carries over 200 plates a night from the kitchen and they need to get them all right. Not including in charge over maybe over a grand in cash that they are accountable for in their pocket. There can also be over 40 people at one time needing things correctly and on their terms that must be attended to and that is all with a smile. There is a sense of timing that a good server learns so it all looks seemless to you as well. Never mind if a good portion of them are drinking. Don't forget about the real jerk who was rude to them one minute earlier and yet they still need to smile at you. The good ones should be compensated for their skill beyond min wage. To say it is just a smile and a plate drop is again not knowing what goes on.
I have done landscaping and serving and they are both challenging. The difference with serving is you cant just shut down mentally or personally like you can as a landscaper for a few minutes. When the fit hits the shan and it gets even more stressful that is when a server must pick it up and fight through it.
Do you know how many servers have crappy sleeps at night cause they are still working their section in their dreams. It just never ends sometimes and can be very mentally taxing.
I do agree that serving can be less physical than some jobs that make the same money but there are numerous people that would never do it.

My point is we were discussing wages and if you dont know how to run a place how can you truly grasp how the wages should be. I would never go into a business that I have never worked in and pretend I know what wages should be. How much should a lwayer make? or a mechanic? or welder? a factory worker? taxi driver? I have no clue cause there are reasons to justify the wage I am not aware of.

Ahh...the Bouwmeester rebuttal - "you don't know/understand/watch closely/have never played the game at a high level"

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Meh, doesn't sound that tough to me. There's probably a reason uneducated teenagers make up the lion's share of waitresses I'm used to seeing and it's not because it's a particularly difficult job (low responsibility, low dollar amounts, few if any employees to supervise, their decisions don't affect many people, physically not that demanding, no real unique qualifications, no education required, etc.).

The stress you refer to happens in every job. Landscapers dream about cutting grass. Dry cleaners dry about dry cleaning clothes. Orderlies dream about cleaning up vomit. McDonald's workers (who encounter all of the job stresses you list, but in a tipless environment) dream about serving Big Mac's.

So you go to crappy places to eat then.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

Ahh...the Bouwmeester rebuttal - "you don't know/understand/watch closely/have never played the game at a high level"

Sure if you are that ignorant to think you understand how a business works and what the wages should be if you have never been in that field.

I don't see other people correct others when they speak informatively about their vocation. They usually respect the persons word and treat it as the correct info.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Sure if you are that ignorant to think you understand how a business works and what the wages should be if you have never been in that field.

Not at all - I just think it is rather amusing how you go through great lengths to complexify (and thus justify?) a servers responsibility. There a a lot of service jobs require attention to detail, have problem customers, require multi-tasking etc etc that do not get tips so what makes carrying a plate/drink so special? As mentioned, why is it based on a percentage at all? Can you justify my steak and lobster requiring a higher tip than my wife's pasta?

The fact is tips are a requirement if you would like to frequent the same restaurant as tips have become institutionalized - the quality of the service is irrelevant. This is reflected by both the server and the customer - the server expects a sizable tip regardless of the quality of their work. Many customers could feel shamed into tipping as a small or no tip would be construed as being 'cheap' (rather than a reflection of the crap service they just received).

Other customers would be forced into tipping if they are (or would like to be) a regular. It would never be "I got a small tip because I suck" but always "that guy/girl is cheap" and the subsequent service would be even worse as word got around (and it would). At many of the franchise style restaurants I would not be surprised at all if this also resulted in some extra "tasty treats" in the food (and no I do not go to these often if at all).

In a bar it is even worse - tip well or get zero service.

Complaining to management would probably not result in anything as Suzy's tits bring in good business - service is irrelevant.

I get it - you are in the industry and will defend its' practices but you will never convince me that it is justified given the entitlement and crap service.

[Yasa]

Sliver, you seem to paint occupations with a broad brush. I'd take the stress of EMS over the stress of serving/line cook/chef any day.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

Not at all - I just think it is rather amusing how you go through great lengths to complexify (and thus justify?) a servers responsibility. There a a lot of service jobs require attention to detail, have problem customers, require multi-tasking etc etc that do not get tips so what makes carrying a plate/drink so special? As mentioned, why is it based on a percentage at all? Can you justify my steak and lobster requiring a higher tip than my wife's pasta?

The fact is tips are a requirement if you would like to frequent the same restaurant as tips have become institutionalized - the quality of the service is irrelevant. This is reflected by both the server and the customer - the server expects a sizable tip regardless of the quality of their work. Many customers could feel shamed into tipping as a small or no tip would be construed as being 'cheap' (rather than a reflection of the crap service they just received).

Other customers would be forced into tipping if they are (or would like to be) a regular. It would never be "I got a small tip because I suck" but always "that guy/girl is cheap" and the subsequent service would be even worse as word got around (and it would). At many of the franchise style restaurants I would not be surprised at all if this also resulted in some extra "tasty treats" in the food (and no I do not go to these often if at all).

In a bar it is even worse - tip well or get zero service.

Complaining to management would probably not result in anything as Suzy's tits bring in good business - service is irrelevant.

I get it - you are in the industry and will defend its' practices but you will never convince me that it is justified given the entitlement and crap service.

You may have missed the part where I agree a tip is not required and bad service should not be rewarded either.

If you do not see that a steak and lobster dinner is a more complex dish and requires great skill to prepare then again you have no understanding. Do all items at your work require the same amount of precision, skill or effort to produce do higher paid employees work on those issues or do you leave even the most important issues to the lowest wage earners too?

my point is that many seem to have trouble seeing is that good service comes at a cost either it will be adjusted in a set wage on a menu price and then you pay the higher salary of incompetence servers too or you reward those that do a good job at your free will.

The way I amuse you with justifying the difficulty in serving and you compare other occupations but are those other occupations making min wage? You seem to be not grasping the concept of job+skill=wage, are these others equal in your statement of comparison? By thinking it is only a requirement to carry a drink/plate shows you have no concept of what it takes to do the job well.

Complaining to mangement does work. A volume of complaints does change things would it not matter at your work?

and no I am not in the industry I have been out of it for almost 20 years. Your problem is you have no respect for the trade.

If service is not good dont tip and complain if you desire but you cant escape the money will be made up elsewhere if there was no tipping.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Yasa

Sliver, you seem to paint occupations with a broad brush. I'd take the stress of EMS over the stress of serving/line cook/chef any day.

I'd wager you wouldn't want to be a server as a career more because it's likely not a very fulfilling/rewarding job and less because it's so stressful.

Originally Posted by SeeBass

You may have missed the part where I agree a tip is not required and bad service should not be rewarded either.

If you do not see that a steak and lobster dinner is a more complex dish and requires great skill to prepare then again you have no understanding. Do all items at your work require the same amount of precision, skill or effort to produce do higher paid employees work on those issues or do you leave even the most important issues to the lowest wage earners too?

my point is that many seem to have trouble seeing is that good service comes at a cost either it will be adjusted in a set wage on a menu price and then you pay the higher salary of incompetence servers too or you reward those that do a good job at your free will.

The way I amuse you with justifying the difficulty in serving and you compare other occupations but are those other occupations making min wage? You seem to be not grasping the concept of job+skill=wage, are these others equal in your statement of comparison? By thinking it is only a requirement to carry a drink/plate shows you have no concept of what it takes to do the job well.

Complaining to mangement does work. A volume of complaints does change things would it not matter at your work?

and no I am not in the industry I have been out of it for almost 20 years. Your problem is you have no respect for the trade.

If service is not good dont tip and complain if you desire but you cant escape the money will be made up elsewhere if there was no tipping.

Yeah well it's a skill-less, easy job and the compensation reflects that. That's not a slag, it's just a fact. You don't go to waitress school, you basically get trained that morning and you're off to the races that night.

I know there's stress, but I think for people who like to do a good job there is stress in anything because you're always challenging yourself to do better.

Personally, I don't mind the way tipping works now. I tip for average to great service. If it's pitiful I wouldn't tip at all but that only happens like once a year.

I guess why I keep arguing with you is because you have waitressing up on a pedestal that it doesn't belong on IMO. I mean seriously, it's not that friggin' difficult.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

If you do not see that a steak and lobster dinner is a more complex dish and requires great skill to prepare then again you have no understanding. Do all items at your work require the same amount of precision, skill or effort to produce do higher paid employees work on those issues or do you leave even the most important issues to the lowest wage earners too?

Let's play devil's advocate from my example above...
I would argue that it takes more skill and effort to prepare a good pho than steak & lobster. The difference in price is attributable to the greater cost of the ingredients. So why would a $1.25 tip be sufficient at Pho Kim, but insulting at Caesar's. At the basic level, I would argue more effort went into the Pho Kim dish, but I am expected to tip 6-7 X as much at Caesar's (per dish) just because the prices are $8 vs $45...

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

You may have missed the part where I agree a tip is not required and bad service should not be rewarded either.

I disagree in that if you want to go back it is required and must be rewarded unless you want worse service or surprises in your food.

If you do not see that a steak and lobster dinner is a more complex dish and requires great skill to prepare then again you have no understanding.

Slightly off topic but steak and lobster can be a quite straightforward dish compared to some pasta dishes. Also, as a customer I do not know how the tips are distributed among various establishments and cannot reward those with the skill and precision. The servers job does not change with the complexity of the dish - they just carry the damn thing out when it is ready.

Do all items at your work require the same amount of precision, skill or effort to produce do higher paid employees work on those issues or do you leave even the most important issues to the lowest wage earners too?

Lowest paid do the grunt work - I see servers as the grunts. While they (servers) are the 'face' of the restaurant the most important issues would be in the food prep so I would hope that the chefs are paid well. People would probably come back for great food with poor service but not for mediocre or poor food with great service (taking trendiness out of the picture).

my point is that many seem to have trouble seeing is that good service comes at a cost either it will be adjusted in a set wage on a menu price and then you pay the higher salary of incompetence servers too or you reward those that do a good job at your free will.

I dispute that it is not a choice without negative repercussions for future visits.

The way I amuse you with justifying the difficulty in serving and you compare other occupations but are those other occupations making min wage?

For a lot of service positions I would say that they are making minimum or near minimum wage.

You seem to be not grasping the concept of job+skill=wage, are these others equal in your statement of comparison? By thinking it is only a requirement to carry a drink/plate shows you have no concept of what it takes to do the job well.

perhaps you missed my reference to details, multi-tasking, troubleshooting etc etc. As far as your horribly patronizing 'job+skill' goes, I already addressed it in your tendency to exaggerate the skill required (while I may be understating it). I do not believe that a server should receive a premium from me because they have other #### to do too.

Complaining to mangement does work. A volume of complaints does change things would it not matter at your work?

My tits don't bring in customers.

and no I am not in the industry I have been out of it for almost 20 years. Your problem is you have no respect for the trade.

Fair enough. I will respect the industry when the people in the industry respect me as a customer and not an ATM.

If service is not good dont tip and complain if you desire but you cant escape the money will be made up elsewhere if there was no tipping.

Once again based on the assumption that servers actually deserve for the money to be made up. On the other hand, I would gladly pay a 20% premium if the increase went to finding good help - at least they would be (fairly) taxed on it.

I think we agree on some points but there are too many variables here. My beefs are with the midground places like the chains and pubs etc. I am also assuming that the servers take the larger share of the tips with a much smaller amount going to the bussers or kitchen. These are the places that I will not go to these days.

Or perhaps I am just a bitter old man after living in a place with much better service - even though tips were not expected or required - because it was their job to give good service. This is despite working for half the hourly in a one of the most expensive cities in the world.