[News] Upd: Drouin decides to sit out until trade is completed. Lightning suspend him.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It's funny how we each have our untouchables. Johnny and Brodie are the two I would never trade.

Monahan/Hamilton for Stamkos and Drouin assuming you could speak with Stamkos agent in advance. It's just a pipe dream. And a risky trade for the Flames.

I hate spitballing trades but he about this offer from BT for Drouin:
Any single player on Flames roster except for Gadreau, Monahan, Bennett and the three top D.
Plus they they can pick any 2 prospects they like.

That probably doesn't get it done.

Monahan/Hamilton for stamkos Drouin?

I'd be willing to do that if stamkos agrees to sign here but only because I think (1.) Monahan will eventually be a 2C on a contending team and (2.) Hamilton likely won't be a number 1 defenceman but a good 2 or a great 3. (3.) I believe stamkos hasn't forgotten how to score and he can/will hit 50 again (4.) Drouin will one day be an all star in this league, you can book it.

But before I go further into this I will say it won't ever ever happen in a million years.

I think teams are offering similar packages, if not more for just stamkos, so there's no way we're getting both for that. Also it would be quite a risk if you consider the questions surrounding stamkos, his play in the playoffs and overall since the leg break. Also depending on how you feel about Drouin it would be a big big risk trading 2 players, who you know what you have and you know they will only improve, in Sean and Dougie, I can only see them improving tbh. Whereas there can be a serious, statistically backed argument made that stamkos has declined since the leg break and st.louis being traded. One could also argue with less stats or data to back their argument, that Drouin has declined, well his stock has certainly taken a hit. Whereas Monahan and Hamilton have literally been constantly improving since draft day, and still are improving. So now we have the rational bits out of the way...

I think organisationally, we are looking good for dmen. I'm betting we get a Hamilton level dman out of one of kylington, andersson, hickey. I also think we've got gio signed long term to be a top pairing dman, and we have Brodie so it's stupid to be paying 3 guys to be top pairing dmen and then rely on Johnny for all of your offence on the other end of the ice.

The questions for me are do you think Brodie is a number 1 dman? HECK YES. Who would you like to play with him on the first line? Giordano.. Can we afford to keep and pay Hamilton as essentially a number 3 dman when we can barely score a goal without Johnny? I guess not.

I would LOVE to keep Monahan. I'd really really like to keep Hamilton as well. But the way I see it we're not short of prospects on defence and I think Bennett is our future 1C (obvs). Why not ship out a good young 30 goal 2 way centre and a good young offensive dman with a big frame and good skating for an elite scoring centre (likely the best goal scorer you can get outside ovie) and Drouin who would instantly become our best 'prospect' leapfrogging kylington and jankowski.

I also disagree that Drouin wouldn't be worth one of Monahan or Hamilton straight up. I don't think it's a case of "if he was worth that much he would be in the NHL with Tampa bay right now". That's not universal logic. You couldn't say the same for a lot of players, who were tweeners and are now stars like tampas diminutive number 9, tyler Johnson is a perfect example of that.

Drouin isn't in the AHL because he's a flop or he forgot how to play. That is a joke, trust me. He's no Gilbert Brule.... He is in the AHL because the team he is on, Tampa, have one of the best rosters in the league up front (stamkos is on the 2nd line), they are underachieving, they were just in the SCF, he is a small player who has A++ offensive ability and vision, but F- in terms of knowing how to play without the puck and outside the offensive zone. He hasn't learned what Johnny has learned, which is how to be a useful and even effective defensive player without being physical or big. Where to be, stick position, sleight of hand, playing your position etc. I'm willing to bet he hasn't had to play defensive hockey in his life and also that he's never ever played in a system or had any system taught to him, outside of power play formations. Tampa also have a GM who supports his coach over his players.

Another point people don't realise is you can't put a player like Drouin on the 3-4th line. It's top 2 lines, with PP minutes or send him down. Just like it is with any other high end offensive player. You don't put them on the 3rd line with meh players and the PK, you cant do that lol. So it was essentially top 6 and PP or bust for Drouin because he can't be used in a bottom 6 role and he needs to be on the PP. What happened is simply this; he wasn't the best player for the top 6. There were other players who could play in the top 6 and help the team win. Since it's obviously not all about offensive skill. You need to do a lot of things to help your team win, especially in the top 6 where you are out there half the game. There are 6 players on that team better, stronger, more experienced, more capable defensively, and still capable of scoring. That's why he is in the AHL.

The notion that Drouin is overrated or sucks because he isn't playing for Tampa is just stupid. I watched him and Mackinnon in their final season in Halifax and it was my opinion that Drouin was far more talented offensively whereas mackinnon was reliant on his elite skating but still had lots of skill. Drouin might be more offensively gifted than Gaudreau - and I'm the biggest Johnny fan boy you can find - I got in a fight with my girlfriend because I cheered for him at the WJC while she was cheering for Canada and I celebrated in her face after gaudreau scored his toe drag goal on Malcolm subban.

Drouin hasn't forgotten how to play hockey, he isn't a kostitsyn who has no passion or effort, he is a young player who ever since pee-wee has probably had no need to play defensively. From the moment he got the puck he basically did what he wanted to, so all he had to do was wait for the puck to be on his stick, even at Halifax. I blame him and his coaches as well before he got to the NHL for not rounding out his game.

Remember when Johnny was glued to the bench because of a few innoportune giveaways and passes that went off people's shins leading to a goal at the other end? Remember when Johnny didn't quite know how or when to use the magic and how or when to turn it off? Drouin does this but 100x more, making unessecary, artistic plays which don't help his team. He is the definition of a confidence player. I am totally sure he will be a star in the NHL - you don't see players like him often, in fact I've never seen a player who at age 17 had the individual offensive skill he had. And I've seen a lot of great players in junior. He needs coaching, help, teaching, a bit more size, etc. He isn't a flop, he's an undersized young player, who wants to succeed, who is passionate about hockey, who never had to learn how to do anything other than score points and break ankles.

[driveway]

I figure Tampa has two choices:
A) Try to get current roster players for Drouin and try to win this year, possibly letting Stamkos hit UFA and risk losing him.
or
B) Prepare to cut-bait on Stamkos and get assets for him and go into a rebuild-on-the-fly. In which case, they're looking for near-ready prospects and picks for Drouin.


I think the Flames have the ability to offer packages to suit either Tampa mentality, though I doubt they would have the best offer either way.

If Tampa goes with option A) They're going for it this year, I would offer any and all of our UFA's for Drouin + ideally a 1st, but more realistically like a 2nd and a 3rd.
Hudler, Jones, Russell. There's experience there, depth defending, scoring, some size in Jones, all the kinds of things GM's look for when they're making the decision to go for a playoff push.

If Tampa's feeling more option B) Then I'd offer them something like any one of Hickey, Anderssen, Kylington, either Klimchuk or Poirier, and then two 2nds in non-consecutive years for Drouin and like a 3rd.

Are either of these options the best deal Tampa could get? I kinda doubt it. I could see arguments being made that either side is getting fleeced or making out like bandits, but those are the two offers I'd put out there for Drouin alone.

If Stamkos came along in a sign-and-trade, there is no player, no player on the Flames I wouldn't be willing to include in a deal. Stamkos with that UFA hammer still hanging over his head is worth, as far as I'm concerned, nothing more than a 2nd round draft pick to the Flames.

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Monahan/Hamilton for stamkos Drouin?

I'd be willing to do that if stamkos agrees to sign here but only because I think (1.) Monahan will eventually be a 2C on a contending team

You lost me right there.

[Vinny01]

Friedman on the FAN stated that Yzerman is looking for a prospect or at least someone the he has control over long term. If a team has a young player thst is signed for 5 years and are willing to take Carle on that could work.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by driveway

If Stamkos came along in a sign-and-trade, there is no player, no player on the Flames I wouldn't be willing to include in a deal. Stamkos with that UFA hammer still hanging over his head is worth, as far as I'm concerned, nothing more than a 2nd round draft pick to the Flames.

I definitely wouldn't trade Gaudreau or Brodie for a signed Stamkos. Maybe add a few other players to that list. I think whoever signs Stamkos to his big deal is going to regret it in a big way within a couple years.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

What kind of young player is signed for 5 years, but isn't good enough to be worth more than Drouin? Normally you need to be an established guy to get a contract like that, and Drouin isn't worth that kind of player at this stage in my view.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

What kind of young player is signed for 5 years, but isn't good enough to be worth more than Drouin? Normally you need to be an established guy to get a contract like that, and Drouin isn't worth that kind of player at this stage in my view.

Not sure about 5 years but Friedman on HNIC suggested on HNIC that Fabbri's name is out there in a potential trade. Still on his ELC for 2 years past this season and would be an RFA at then end of the contract.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

I really wonder how enticing a guy like Poirier is as a young, controllable player from Yzerman's POV? Too bad he's struggling this year but if Yzerman sees something in him, you would think he sort of fits the bill here, especially if we take Carle. Obviously, that would make things super tight cap-wise, but it would make both Hudler and Russell expendable with being replaced by Droiun and Carle coming in. A big selling point here would be Poirier having 2.5 years left on his ELC.

Drouin+Carle for Poirier

Should CGY add? Carle is a pretty big poison pill to swallow, he by all rights should tank Drouin's value if attached to him in a trade.

Effectively Drouin is downgraded into Poirier at the cost of the Flames fully absorbing Carle's contract. Could be too risky for our cap situation obviously, but the rewards could be great if BT could manage to navigate the mess of overpaid players.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Russell might have to be added to balance the dollars, I'm not sure we could even take Carle and not be over the cap. Maybe something like this:

Poirier+Russell for Drouin+Carle+3rd

[codynw]

With Gaudreau already on the team, Drouin isn't a big enough need to be worth the cost. I can't wait for him to be traded somewhere else so we stop talking about this.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by codynw

With Gaudreau already on the team, Drouin isn't a big enough need to be worth the cost. I can't wait for him to be traded somewhere else so we stop talking about this.

You can have two small, mega talented LWers on a team as long as those are your only two small forwards. You would think fans of the Flames of all teams would see this with our history of small star players. And Drouin's not even that small anyway, he's just under 6 ft tall. It would be no worse than having guys like Huselius and Tanguay on the team at the same time IMO, given how small they played.

[howard_the_duck]

No way Yzerman would only take a Poirier back. Poirier is a B-level prospect right now. Yzerman's cited numerous times that Drouin was taken 3rd in the draft, and they have huge expectations from him to be an anchor of their team moving forward, and that the'd need an equal talent in return.

Given this, and the fact you have half of the league in a bidding war to get him, I have a hard time thinking Calgary lines up in this kind of a trade. The Flames undoubtedly have the assets, but IMO it stalls the growth of the team to part with those assets in order to bring Drouin in.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by codynw

With Gaudreau already on the team, Drouin isn't a big enough need to be worth the cost. I can't wait for him to be traded somewhere else so we stop talking about this.

Just like how Chicago didn't sign Panarin because they already had Kane, right?

[codynw]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Just like how Chicago didn't sign Panarin because they already had Kane, right?

Chicago didn't give up assets for Panarin.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

I really wonder how enticing a guy like Poirier is as a young, controllable player from Yzerman's POV? Too bad he's struggling this year but if Yzerman sees something in him, you would think he sort of fits the bill here, especially if we take Carle. Obviously, that would make things super tight cap-wise, but it would make both Hudler and Russell expendable with being replaced by Droiun and Carle coming in. A big selling point here would be Poirier having 2.5 years left on his ELC.

Drouin+Carle for Poirier

Should CGY add? Carle is a pretty big poison pill to swallow, he by all rights should tank Drouin's value if attached to him in a trade.

Effectively Drouin is downgraded into Poirier at the cost of the Flames fully absorbing Carle's contract. Could be too risky for our cap situation obviously, but the rewards could be great if BT could manage to navigate the mess of overpaid players.

I like the idea but I don't think Carle's contract is that huge a problem for Tampa Bay. Enough to give up an elite prospect for a much lesser prospect. If that is what to takes to dump a contract, then we wouldn't like the price to trade any of our problems (Raymond, Smid, Engelland, Wideman, Stajan etc.).

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Russell might have to be added to balance the dollars, I'm not sure we could even take Carle and not be over the cap. Maybe something like this:

Poirier+Russell for Drouin+Carle+3rd

That takes the Flames blueline cap hits next year at $34.3M with 7 guys signed next year. At least 3 guys and $8.7M are gone in the following summer

[sureLoss]

@JSportsnet: Interesting to hear David Poile on @SiriusXMNHL today admit that he has talked to Steve Yzerman about Jonathan Drouin.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

No way Yzerman would only take a Poirier back. Poirier is a B-level prospect right now. Yzerman's cited numerous times that Drouin was taken 3rd in the draft, and they have huge expectations from him to be an anchor of their team moving forward, and that the'd need an equal talent in return.

Given this, and the fact you have half of the league in a bidding war to get him, I have a hard time thinking Calgary lines up in this kind of a trade. The Flames undoubtedly have the assets, but IMO it stalls the growth of the team to part with those assets in order to bring Drouin in.

What team is going to take Carle straight up though? You're kind of dismissing the whole point of my post. Obviously Drouin > Porier, I'm not sure why that needs to be pointed out when I plainly said that taking Carle would be the PRICE for downgrading Drouin into Poirier. I'm just wondering how much Yzerman wants that contract gone. I even questioned if we would have to add.

Before this season, no one would call Poirier a B prospect, which was also referenced in my post. Maybe Yzerman thinks he can get back on track?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I like the idea but I don't think Carle's contract is that huge a problem for Tampa Bay. Enough to give up an elite prospect for a much lesser prospect. If that is what to takes to dump a contract, then we wouldn't like the price to trade any of our problems (Raymond, Smid, Engelland, Wideman, Stajan etc.).

Carle as of right now is worse than any of the Flames defenders and he has 2 years left on his contract tract after this at $5.5M so higher than Wideman. With Stamkos, Kucherov, Johnson, Hedmen, Palat needing new contracts before Carle expires they need to dump that deal. I don't think the flames are in position to take that deal on either. Drouin wants out and they won't get a comparable player. The next best thing is getting rid
Of a bad salary

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

That takes the Flames blueline cap hits next year at $34.3M with 7 guys signed next year. At least 3 guys and $8.7M are gone in the following summer

I know, I said it would be a mess. BT would have his work cut out for him for sure. That said, all he would have to do is find a taker for Wideman and the problem goes away. Easier said than done obviously.